Repercussions

[Basementdweller]

A long story, after calling every family in the Pack talking about the Friends of Scouting, with poor results and mad families. I spent a week every night calling families for $50 bucks. I would have been better off donating it myself and taking the rest of the week off.

 

What is the repercussions of not participating???????

 

We are also questioning Popcorn selling as well???????

 

Had an interesting discussion with the committee today and wondering about what exactly we get for our supporting Council????? Resident camp that is $50-80 more than neighboring councils and a poor program to boot. Council camps that are in horrible shape, arrogant DE's, near zero support from council office.

 

The council is talking about building a Ritzy new service center in a very expensive and exclusive area of town.....Please, fix up the camps first and then the offices.

 

Loss of camperships??? nope, the church will give us money if we need it.

Free advancement????? please

Quality program????? nope, we receive zero help their from council or district.

 

 

So we are talking about not selling popcorn or participating in FOS.

 

Your thoughts.

 

Scouting is a business and then serve the boys second.

 

 

[Eagle92]

WOW, I empathize, esp. since I can understand. I was a DE in a council like that minus the arrogant DEs. We kept hitting out heads against a wall until we finally quit.

 

The best thing I cna recommend is get your COR involved on the district and council level per his right as a COR. That and pray for a new SE with a different outlook. When the SE I worked for left, champagne was broken out by volunteers and the new SE made some changes in a positive direction. Current SE is a Godsend and is putting the kids first.

[jhankins]

I 2nd what Eagle has stated here. As a DE I even encouraged units to not participate in FOS and popcorn until they felt comfortable with where their monies went. My bosses hated that I said that, but it paid off in the end. It took a lot of unit service to the upset units to show them they were getting their monies worth, but it was a job I was proud to do. If your DE isn't cooperating, the only people he's really hurting are the boys.

 

If customer service sucks at the office, and your DE isn't your "servant" like his Executive's Oath he took states, and you're not getting your money's worth at camp, I suggest as a committee you write it in a nice letter, have your COR sign it, and ship it off to the Council Key Three. Not to the SE to the Key Three -- so the volunteers sign it.

 

 

[packsaddle]

I sympathize. No one is forced to contribute to FOS. No one is forced to sell popcorn. If your pack doesn't want to participate in these things, you don't have to. Take care of your unit and your boys first and then, if you're comfortable with these fundraisers, participate.

 

Frankly, this is one reason I support the idea of making the whole thing fee-based. You pay for the product and as the real customer, you then take control of the quality and supply of the product through market forces, just like the system is supposed to work in this country...instead of participating in a system involving entitlements and hand outs. When we pay for the product, we not only can choose the product, through the direct investment we appreciate the product more, instead of viewing it has a 'freebie' or subsidized entitlement. And if we don't like it, market forces will remove it...as should happen to inferior products.

[Scoutfish]

Yeah, that's the thing isn't it? Selling popcorn or fundraising is ultimately to benifit us by benefiting the scouts. If we sell sell sell and never see anything from it by way of support, camps or programs....then it's an effort wasted.

 

Of course, if you have a top notch camp, ecellent programs and thescouts cannot wait to go back or at least sign up..and your SE and De are always there for you...there is nothing to lose!

 

 

I think of the whole FOS and popcorn sales as a voluntary tax. My biggest gripe in the timing of my councils sales dates: Immediatly after students return to school - which means right after mom and dad just spent tons on $$$$$ on clothes,uniforms, fees, pictures, and school supplies as school just started.

 

Add in that most Cub Scout roundups want some sort of prorated fee for membership and Boy's Life subscription...the pack you just jopined needs member ship dues or fees as well as asking for recharter fees...,.....well, you run out of $$$$$$

 

It's worse if your counic website stil shows only camping or weekend oppertunities from last year or the site only updates 2 times a year.

 

Point being..I don't mind paying for something as long as I actually get something. But I have no issue not selling anything If I know I won't get anything either!

 

But let me clarify: When I say "If I know I won't get anything" I my son or the scouts in the program .

[Eamonn]

When I think about supporting "The Council". I end up with along list of contradictions.

I'm almost clever enough to know that without cash the Council is going to have to cut the services it can offer.

But I don't like the idea that my hard earned money is not being spent wisely.

Many Councils are a little reluctant to show where the money is really being spent.

Even trying to find out something simple like how much is being spent in a certain area becomes a real challenge. So much so that at times I can only think this is done so by design.

I don't like this and would very much prefer that a more open and easy to understand method of accounting be adopted.

 

I have been around the Council where I live for a little over 25 years.

When it comes to the services offered by the council. It seems to me that a lot depends on who the SE is and also how involved the Council President is. How well these two guys work together also seems to be a big factor.

We were very lucky in that for a number of years we had a run of Presidents who knew what Scouting was about and how to go about making things happen, sadly these guys were followed by a run of Presidents who looked good on paper having all the right connections, but no real knowledge of Scouting. Couple these guys with a SE who wasn't that bright and things started to go down hill.

We as volunteers need to know what we want from the Council.

We need to know who is deciding what.

 

When I became a District Chair. I kinda inherited the guy who was the District Camping Chair. A really nice older fellow who has a great love for camping and the Council Summer Camp.

He was in many ways like the old lady in the ad for the muffler who used to say "I'm not going to pay a lot for this muffler" Only for him it was all about the cost of summer camp. He had dug his heels in and for years done everything he could to keep the cost of summer camp from being increased by more than $5.00 a year. He paid little or no attention to what the cost of the camp was all he seen was keeping the cost down. Being that he had served on the camping committee since BP was a boy, he had a lot of pull.

It wasn't until he was able to see how much money the camp was losing that he agreed to even consider more than "His" $5.00 increase.

Councils are run by people.

If we want to ensure that they are run right we need to either be involved or ensure that the people who are involved are people that we can trust.

All too often the people who are unhappy with what is going on turn their back on it all and walk away. Rightly or wrongly these people are labeled as not being interested and soon it becomes that because they are not interested or involved that their opinion or feeling just don't count.

While not supporting the Council might in some ways send a message, I tend to go in the other direction. I like to go check in hand and say "Hey, here is my check, how are you going to use the money?"

A few years back thanks to some really poor money management by the SE and lack of attention by members of the Executive Board, we were faced with having to sell a Council owned camp site.

A full meeting of the Council Executive Board was called. At the time thanks to the SE hand picking board members the Board had about 60 members. (Way to many in my opinion!) About 40 people turned up. Selling the site was the only item on the agenda. I sat there and looked around and of the 40 I only seen about 6 who had ever been to the site. I was upset that this lot who knew so little were going to decide on something that would impact the program for years to come. Selling the site was of course the easy way to solve the financial problems.

(The real solution came when we let the SE go!)

I felt at this meeting that I needed to get the attention of the board members, so I wrote a check for $5,000 and challenged everyone there to do the same, saying that if we each gave $10,000 we could make the problem at hand go away. Sadly only one other board member was willing to match my offer. It did however grab the attention of the Board and we managed not to sell the site. - Money does talk.

 

I have in the past posted that I would be all for a Council Membership fee, doing away with the need for FOS.

Ea.

[desertrat77]

In today's economy, every dollar counts. I applaud penalizing poor service, and lousy attitudes, BSA or otherwise.

 

If there is no tangible return on investment, then folks vote with their wallets.

 

In a larger sense, this highlights how important scouting is at the troop level. That's where scouting takes place. Everything else above that is bureaucracy and middle management. Some is necessary, much of it is not.

 

If the choice is to give 1 dollar to the council, or a troop, I'll give it to a troop every time.

 

And a closing potshot: annual popcorn sales are a waste of time--if you are at unit level. I've believed that since the BSA started it in the late '80s.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Without our district or counil, we would be..merged into another council. Our council is roughly 100 x 150 miles, and our service center and national scout shop are right here in my hometown, 12 miles away. To have that more to a location 60-180 miles away if our council went under would be extremely difficult for our program.

 

For participating in FOS, Popcorn, and the "Spring Fundraiser" (which was extremely successful this year!), we receive free use of camp and facilities for the year (not summer camp). This includes canoes. Last year we did 2 canoe trips totaling 7 nights. For the 8 canoes we used, had we utilized local outfitters, this would have cost the troop $2500. We also camped 2x at remote camps at our scout reservation, which would have cost maybe $100. So, $2600 or $0. For us it is a no brainer.

 

We have always had successful FOS campaigns in our pack and troop under my leadership. We do it this way. Before the B&G or COH, I personally contact the parent (previous pack meeting or at troop end of year parent meeting) and I explain that a district rep will be visiting and soliciting money for FOS. I briefly explain FOS and suggest that our family supports and that each family is welcome to do the the same. Likewise, I offer that times are tough and no one is obligated to make a contribution. That way when the FOS rep comes around, no one is blind sided. Last year, our troop of 15 contributed $1500, and our pack of 30 gave almost $2500.

 

FOS, the way we handle it brings nothing back to the units, in the form of $$$. Yet we know it supports our area program and makes those who are able and willing to contribute feel good. On the other hand, popcorn sales pay for nearly 100% of the pack program, and about 1/3 of the troop budget. In recent years our council has struggled to find a productive fundraiser for the spring. This year they made "camp cards": a credit card sized reusable discount coupon for use at at 6 local vendors; it also has 3 one time use tabs for $5, $5 and $10. The cards sell for $5 each and the troop gets 1/2. We use this 100% for camperships. Sell 60 cards, pay for local camp. Sell 125 and pay for out of council camp. At $5, these are easy to move, and we had one scout sell almost 200 and pay for both camps in full.

 

We are a part of our district and council. If we don't support them, they will go away and the loss will be ours. Learn to use these things to your advantage. Make it fun. But play nice. You will come ahead in the long run.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

[packsaddle]

So there it is...the choice between a capitalist approach and a communistic approach.

[moosetracker]

We spent 5 years only paying $1.00 to FOS. I figured not contributing didn't send a message. Handing them $1.00 sent a message loud and clear.

 

My son signed up for trail to Eagle, we also paid for another boy to attend because my son was having health issues, (what we thought at the time to be epiletic but turned out to be dystonia). To make along story short, they pretended they would run it like other years.. Made reassuring noises to parents when we arrived at camp with our kids. Then when the parents left, they yelled surprise to the kids, did not run per-say a Trail to Eagle, (fun electives, hiking, cope course.. All the things my son in with his health issues shouldn't have been doing.) Refused to let the boys who were upset call home. When my son stood up to them demanding he get the program he came for, they told him he was not "Eagle material" to question their authority etc.. etc..

 

Well when we picked him up, got the full story, no blue cards signed off, even lost the paper work he did for prerequisits of the MB's he had signed up for (Yes, to keep the surprise they let them choose their MB's only to not offer them)..

 

Needless to say we were not happy.. We demanded they appologize to our son. They could applogize or return the money for the two boys we paid to attend. They chose to do neither. So we took it back with FOS money we would have normally donated.. Until entirely paid back we gave a $1.00 donation with a message of "Normally you would be receiving $xx.xx from us as in past years but since you need to pay us back for not fullfilling your commitement to provide the Trial to Eagle program that we paid you for. We are deducting it from your FOS payment."

 

Since then our FOS has not been alot less.

[moosetracker]

Ooops.. Meant to say "Since then our FOS has been alot less"..

[desertrat77]

Buffalo, if I was in your council, I'd have no problem giving during FOS.

 

But in Basement's council? Not a penny. I would follow Moose's example to the letter.

 

I've been in a lousy council in the past, much like Basement's, and I would not give to FOS. If the council and district staffs will not serve the units--in a service-oriented organization no less--then I'm fine with the council folding.

 

I will not subsidize poor service, whether it's BSA or any other entity.

[DeanRx]

For what its worth, in our council - if you don't at lest make a token attempt to participate in Popcorn sales, the council will REFUSE to sign-off on any other unit fundraising permits.

 

So, you want to hold a car wash or pancake feed to raise monies to go to Philmont? Then your unit had better at least turn SOMETHING in at popcorn time, or they won't approve your other fundraising venture.

 

DeanRx

 

FOS is a little less of an arm twist, the DE's just ask you to do multiple presentations in the same year to folks who have lost their jobs - it a hard sell for sure.

[packsaddle]

Dreaded double-post, sorry(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[packsaddle]

NJCubscouter, in case you're reading this you should probably stop now.

 

As Rush Limbaugh has said in the past, "It's all about money." You guys are justified in your feelings and I agree. And money, or denial of it, really is a best way to get the message across. As for fundraisers and permits, my experience has been...don't bother to ask for a permit. If your unit needs new tents, do your fundraiser and most likely they'll just make noise, not much else, and probably not even that. If they do make noise, apologize or just shrug. Better yet, offer to have an open forum to air all the grievances in front of everyone. It might be an opportunity for a constructive conversation for all of the units to participate in.

But the most important objective is to benefit the boys in your unit. There are out of council camps and plenty of other high adventure opportunities out there if the product you are receiving doesn't meet your expectations. As the 'customers' you have the control in the form of the money spigot. If you don't like the product and the vendor is not listening, turn off the spigot or at least spend your funds in ways that directly benefit your boys and your units.