Hazing issue

[Eagledad]

>>Now, if this really is a case of a dingbat teenager, then by responding strongly and reassuring the other boys and parents that yeh take stuff like this seriously, yeh have credibility as adult leaders. Then if yeh decide to let the boy come back to da program under certain conditions they will trust you and believe in you. You might save the lad's scouting career.>The boy may not have meant any harm, but that doesn't matter. Harm was done, actions were innapropriate and rules were broken as well as somebody hurt.

 

It's time to be held accountable.

[Scoutfish]

No, there is aproblem NOW!

 

Emotional. no can't say I am as it is not, does not, not will if affectme in any personal way.

 

But here's the thing, it may not be a crime to sack tap, but there are laws about touching other people without permission. Depending on how you want to defimne it..it falls under unwanted contact to full physical assault.

But I'm not concerned with playing lawyer or court system

My concern is with the scouts who follow rules, follow the system and do things right.

 

"Sorry Johnny, I know you were is physical pain nad had to go to the hospital and get stuff done. but well... Billy Bob said he apologized and as far as Billy is concerned...it's all done and settled!"

 

Yeah, so basically, we are telling all the good scouts that as long as the bad scouts apologize, then it's all done , settled and they have to just deal with it?

 

Well, I suppose if a scout ever mouths off to you, decides to give you a sack tap or does anything else...you are gong tolet it slide, say nothing, and give him another chance?

 

Again, this scout is not a first time offender nor is this the first issue anybody has had.

 

I'm not saying take him to jial, just saying, he IS accountable. PERIOD!

 

 

 

*IT is the Scoutmasters job to guide the scouts to right and wrong decisions.*

 

Yeah, but the scout already made a decision.

 

*Character is choosing not to follow the instinctive nature when it risk harm to the other person.* Yeah, too late on that too, the scout already caused the harm...physical harm.

 

*Character is the courage to stop others before they hurt others.* It is also the courage to act( EVEN THOUGH NOT POPULAR) to stop somebody to CONTINUE harming others. Not just saying: " We'll let it go this time, but next time there's trouble"

 

This scout isn't 5 years old.

 

And "Everybody else was doing it" isn't a credible excuse. If that's the case, I'm going to rob a bank and then tell the judge" People have been doing it for ages!"

 

Incidentally, I'm not suggesting, calling or suggesting the boy is a sexual predator. Sack tapping could easily be a kick in the but, thumping the head, kicking the back of somebody elses knee, or tripping. He's just a kid who can't keep his hands to himself and the time for him to know to stop was a long time ago.

[Eagledad]

>>*Character is the courage to stop others before they hurt others.* It is also the courage to act( EVEN THOUGH NOT POPULAR) to stop somebody to CONTINUE harming others. Not just saying: " We'll let it go this time, but next time there's trouble"

[E V Augustine]

Eagledad (Barry),

 

Things have changed. An $18.5 million liability settlement in April 2010. A May 24, 2010 memo making Youth Protection Training mandatory with an effective date of June 1, 2010 requiring submittal of proof of training to initially register, and automatic removal from the roster at recharter for failure to comply.

 

Assuming the facts initially presented are accurate the youth committed an assault resulting in physical injury. Policy provides that the perpetrator be removed from the unit roster for disciplinary reasons and a YPT report be made to the Scout Executive. Then someone can sort it out.

 

It would be easier if this were 1963 where the perpetrator might end up as the only guest at a blanket party on the next camp out. At that time most folks would have thought things worked out about right.

 

Before we become too concerned about the perpetrator consider the lesson taught by how the incident is handled. Reportedly there are two units involved. Absent appropriate action perceptible to the youth members the conduct is accepted leaving the possibility for subsequent occurrences by the perpetrator, other youth and/or retaliation. In this case I would not forsake the ninety and nine.

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

"This is a cad thing to say, but these are 'rights of passage' for adolescent boys."

I think what you meant to refer to was 'rites of passage' which traditionally are rites that mark passage from one status to another - often sexual maturity, but usually acknowledgment of increased responsibility and readiness to join adult life. I don't see it for this behavior and I do remember such nonsense from when I was growing up. "Trading licks" often escalated into more than a friendly contest and getting kneed was clearly seen as an extreme thing by those who engaged in it. Moreover, getting kneed usually meant that the culprit must be beaten to a pulp or else he or someone else would knee you again sometime...I only got kneed once and some 50 years after that time I still feel the anger rising when I think back on that event and my response.

None of that was or is acceptable behavior and just because adults might have turned a blind eye on it back then didn't make it less of an assault, sometimes brutal and injurious.

So I disagree with your dismissal of this behavior. The concept of 'rite of passage' doesn't apply because there is nothing about the behavior that implies change in status of maturity...and under any view the behavior is unnecessary, hurtful, violent, and unacceptable.

[Mike F]

This one is a bit more tangled than first read.

 

I discovered an outbreak of "sack tapping" shortly after taking over as SM of the troop I serve. To my son's horror, I addressed it immediately by name with the whole troop. In short, there's room for some physical fun in a spirited game of Capture the Flag, but keep your hands away from your buddy's gonads. Zero tolerance. Any violators will be going home immediately without regard to time of day or distance.

In PLC (which offending older boys attended), we talked about their responsibility in always setting the example and protecting the other guys. And the cold fact I would hammer them if it ever flared up again.

End of problem.

So far.

 

Guess we were lucky nobody got hurt and it really flared up.

 

Good luck to dhendron and company.

[OldGreyEagle]

I am not sure if I would ever equate sack tapping with punching in the arm in a game of "you flinched", wait, in a game of you fliched, you knew the punch was coming. In a "dare" you knew what you had to do, it was voluntary

 

You want to prove your are a better man than the other guy? Boxing gloves with helmets and mouthpieces and if there is a black eye, a sack of frozen peas

 

Willfully causing pain to an unsuspecting victim has no shred of charactor building in it

[qwazse]

I really owe the youth in my crew a lot of love and respect after reading this thread.

 

But, dhendron, your crew members need to know that they will not be put at risk so someone can have a "safe haven" from their behavior in a sister unit. The crew officers are responsible for discipline within thier unit, so your obligation to them is to get them educated on YP. BSA has some decent videos on sexual harrasment and date rape. Even if they aren't making judgements (which in this case, it seems that's out of their hands), they need to understand why you are taking any action.

 

What action should you take? The gold award is secondary. I would suggest a 2 month suspension. It gives the kid time to sort out if he wants to be in a group that frowns on his behavior. While he's away, keep an ear out for anything your officers might have to say on the situation. If he come's back and your officers deem he's shaped up, you can push the gold award paperwork a month later.

 

The point here isn't to single out "slappy" -- he did that on his own --, but to let the crew know they have the right to demand a safe environment for themselves.

[OldGrayOwl]

>>> This is a rite of passage

[E V Augustine]

Gentlemen,

 

Before we can be accused of male centric responses; ie. taking care of one of our own, consider the consequences of "ta-ta" tapping reported to the police.

 

The Scout Oath and Law have little currency in an arraignment hearing.

 

Given that a Scout is thrifty, I have no funds accrued for BSA related legal defense. Consequently I would take all prudent action to limit my personal legal exposure.

 

Given that its about $40k to the court house steps, as a volunteer adult leader why do I need to care if the perpetrator makes next rank or if he has a positive Scouting experience should I become a named defendant?

 

You may wax prosaic about the Scout Oath and Law and national policy here, but that will not stand as defense in many legal jurisdictions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

Barry makes a good point. The problem I have is with the way the parents of the instigator are claiming he is the injured party. Horse hockey! He got caught doing something he shouldn't be doing and is embarrassed! And he should be! Time to man up and take your lumps!

[AlamanceScouter]

Just saw this article:

 

http://www.livescience.com/culture/sack-tapping-dangerous-100607.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Livesciencecom+%28LiveScience.com+Science+Headline+Feed%29

[dhendron]

I have had a couple of comments, including one sent directly to me, about whether the appropriate notifications were made, among other comments, including those accusing me of not doing my job, not protecting the scouts, or essentially failing to act as a true leader. Thanks for those, by the way, but I would like to say that sending me hate email while we are discussing an issue like this -- which included a similar email from the boy's parents -- is probably counterproductive and not in keeping with scout spirit.

 

Back to the issue at hand: When the incident occurred, the troop notified the chartered organization rep, our unit commissioner, and our SE, who is a district director. The district director asked the scoutmaster to conduct an investigation that included witness statements, a statement from the perpetrator, and other information. That is being compiled. All that occurred prior to my original post.

 

Don't forget that my question had more to do with his Venturing Gold award than what would occur at the troop level. Since I am the advisor for the scout who injured the other scout, my part of this has less to do with the actual incident -- which is the troop's responsibility -- than to deal with scout spirit or other issues that impact crew operations, future achievements, etc.

 

Discipline is still being worked out. The family has come around and is now cooperative. Thank you again for the constructive comments. For those intent on sending me personal hate mail, please don't. I am trying to solve the problem here and was seeking advice, not invective.

[Novice_Cubmaster]

ghendron,

 

Amen, brother.

 

Happy Scouting from here on.

 

NC

[Scoutfish]

dhendron,

Wow! I hate that you are getting hate e-mails and PM's. Shows what people say and what their character is ..is 2 different things.

 

Okay, congrats! When people get off track on your posts...you ought to be honored in that you posted a great post....at least by scouter.com standards! LOL!

 

So your original question: No, He should not get any awards or advancements, recognitions or even a smiley sticker.

 

Why?Because the awards are based on individual character or acomplishments right? The awards goes to the person, not the group the [erson belongs to?

 

So If I am one of those people who - in my personal vehicle - runs stoplights, drives aggressively and shows road rage and regularly passes stoped school buses....I sghould not get a safe driver award because of how I drive a company truck. The award goes to me. Not my company truck over my personal truck.

 

An award to a person or their character is based on their WHOLE ENTIRE character, not just their 9 to 5 or weekend character.

 

Suppose you know a guy who cheats on his wife every time she goes on buisness trips. You wouldn't give this guy an award for being husband of the year because he acts it when she's home, right?

 

Maybe not the best analogy, but you get what I mean.