swimming holes & aquatics safety

[LIBob]

sincere Congrats SMT I'm sure you and your troop had a great time.

 

As a former BSA summer camp lifeguard (and now in the process of re-certifying to become the aquatics MB counselor for my sons troop) I can safely and honestly say

- The way you handled it sounds adequately safe to me. The question at hand s really more a question of liability to the BSA, and adherence to BSA rules.

- As a scouter posting on a scouting forum Ill not post anything that would encourage you to violate BSA safe swim defense (which, as has already been pointed out was actually designed for setting up swim areas on Scout Reservations.)

- If you had posted your thoughts on a swimming forum youd get one set of answers.

- When you posted them on a scouting forum, well, youre gonna get another set.

 

 

As a scouter posting on a scouting forum I cannot condon taking scouts for a recreational swimming trip to such a swimming hole.

 

Feel free to take the kids as a group of friends, but for liability reasons you should leave BSA out of it.

 

That said, there ARE BSA authorized circumstances under which your troop can and should utilize such an area. But recreational swimming just isn't one of them.

 

I'll explain in a moment.(This message has been edited by LIBob)

[LIBob]

Dear all:

 

Please do not use any of the following as an excuse to take your scouts on a recreational swimming trip in any manner that violates BSA SSD.

 

Not all BSA activities that involve kids in the water are recreational swimming. Every year, summer camp puts hundreds of kids into water that does not meet SSD standards (no roped areas no checked bottom etc.) Doing so is perfectly within BSA regs if you done so for instructional/preparedness purposes but not within BSA regs if done so for the purpose of recreational swimming

e.g.

1. While teaching canoeing, rowing sailing skills etc. there are several times when you canoers etc. to get into the water. Canoeing MB requirement 6 requires every student to get out of the canoe and climb back in. It also requires they jump out, capsize the canoe , right it and crawl inside their now water-filled canoe and paddle to shore.. This is done at every camp in the country and is NEVER done inside a roped off swimming area.

 

2. Even if scouts are not attempting such an MB, BSA Safety afloat includes 9 points. http://www.inaraft.com/pdf/safety_afloat.pdf Under point #3 a limited number of non-swimmers ARE allowed on canoe trips etc.. However under Point #6 ALL participants (both swimmers and non-swimmers), must be trained and ****experienced**** in watercraft handling skills, safety, and emergency procedures.

 

IOW before you ever take your scouts on a canoe trip have them especially the non-swimmers jump get out of the canoe, into the water and make it to shore or make it back in the canoe (with or without the help of his fellow scouts.). You would be crazy (and in violation of BSAs safety Afloat rules) to take a non-swimmer on a canoe TRIP without practicing such emergency procedures first.

 

In short there are lots of traiing safety/purposes by which you can get those kids (swimmers and non-swimmers alike) in that swimming hole, but recreational swimming is just not one of them.

 

If the kids need to cool off and that's the only place to do it

stage a legitimate training/safety exercise. You will not only have BSA's blessing but wihtout something like that you will never have BSA's blessing to take non-swimmers on a canoe trip.

 

Non-swimmers too must be prapared in case their canoe tips over.(This message has been edited by LIBob)(This message has been edited by LIBob)

[Beavah]

Yah, LIBob, welcome to da forums!

 

Agree with much of what yeh wrote with respect to watersports, though I'd never heard anybody at NCS or anywhere else cut da "recreational swimming" definition as fine as that, eh?

 

I'm curious, however, about but for liability reasons you should leave BSA out of it.

 

What exactly is your theory of liability in such a case?

 

Beavah

 

[LIBob]

Hi Beav.

 

Just in case I was not clear.

I am not trying to say folks should feel free to play fast and loose with BSA rules, or interpret them loosely etc.

 

I'm saying the BSA rules are strict but not unreasonable. If your goal is to let the kids cool off in a local (unapproved) swimming hole there are ways you can do it. But you must plan ahead (be prepared) and can't let them go there to play Marco Polo.

 

Scout camps teach canoeing (including how to respond to capsize, how to climb in an out of a canoe, how to formo a shore rescue line etc.) all the time. They do this outside of approved swimming areas.

 

Indeed troops ARE allowed to take non-swimmers on canoe trips raft trips etc. But according to safety afloat training, all such trip participants must have 3 hours of canoe/raft practice ahead of time. I don't know of any troop that has ever done this in a roped off swim area and Safety Afloat training illustrates this being done outside an approved swim area.

[Beavah]

Yah, again, I agree with yeh for da most part, though I don't really think there are SSD provisions for Marco Polo in my version of SSD.

 

I was just curious about your oblique references to liability. In my experience, when the "L" word comes up in scouting circles we enter da Twilight Zone. Mystery, darkness, weird happenings, da VoiceOver of Rod Sterling. Scary stuff. Doesn't have anything to do with reality, of course. More like a campfire ghost story, eh?

 

Beavah

[LIBob]

The point about BSA and liability is that BSA is financially liable for bad stuff (from broken toes to drowning) that happen on officialy sanctioned BSA outings but not liable for stuff that happens to a group of scouts and families on their own time.

 

If you want to have a "summer outing" with some scout friends go right ahead and swim under any conditions you deem safe.

 

But if it is an official scout event and you want tot take the scouts into an unroped swimming area then do so for a BSA-approved purpose not for random play.

[Beavah]

Yah, not a good theory of liability at all then, eh? Problably best not to make that kind of spurrious statement in da future. Being honest with folks about your own knowledge and experience and all that.

 

SSD is an awareness training program, eh? It doesn't define a community standard or care for negligence purposes. Particularly in da case you mention, where it offers only guidance not policy (read your G2SS carefully).

 

And while a notion that "recreational swimming" defines a special and different subclass of swimming is an interestin one, that's not supported in any of da literature or training. I expect it's something some Camp Director or AD in your area made up by way of explanation(?). I kinda like it for that, eh? But it doesn't have a lick to do with liability.

 

Besides, as scouters we're not concerned with legal mishmash anyways, eh? Not da interest or expertise of most of us. We're just interested in keepin' kids safe. Plenty of ways of doin' that in a swimming hole.

 

Beavah

 

[Gunny2862]

So is LlBob suggesting that if a group of Scouts who are on a hike come across a swimming site that they may not enter the water without performing not just a SSD evaluation and set all the rest of the proper precautions in place but must perform some subterfuge about a training evolution? Folks rocks and Sticks with some twine suffice to mark swim boundaries. And I think even Irving would say that at some point a pool is too shallow, and small an area to require marking.

 

Guidance people, thinking about things, avoiding intentional negligence and above all doing it to keep the kids safe.

 

 

[LIBob]

I am not suggesting any sort of subterfuge. In fact I repeatedly warned against it. FOUR TIMES (caps for emphasis, not for yelling.)

 

Seriously at YOUR summer camp do they teach canoeing?

Do they teach canoeists what to do when a canoe capsizes?

Do teach those skills in the SWIMMING AREA?

 

I am saying, have said, and will repeat there are legitmate scouting activites that can be performed in unroped waters. Playing Marco Polo is ot one of them. Free swim time is not one of them. Water volley ball is not one of them.

 

If you are on a scouting event and you want your kids on those waters you must either

- plan ahead and set up a safe swim area, or

- do one of the allowed activities and not one of the disallowed activites.

 

I happen to think what SMT did was safe and therfore I phrased my post nicely. Nonetheless I quite clearly posted

1. "I cannot condon taking scouts for a recreational swimming trip to such a swimming hole."

 

2. "Dear all:

 

Please do not use any of the following as an excuse to take your scouts on a recreational swimming trip in any manner that violates BSA SSD."

 

3. "Just in case I was not clear.

I am not trying to say folks should feel free to play fast and loose with BSA rules, or interpret them loosely etc."

 

4. "if it is an official scout event and you want tot take the scouts into an unroped swimming area then do so for a BSA-approved purpose not for random play. "

 

I am not sure how anyone can interpret that as "go ahead, just use suberfuge." Am I not making myself clear?

 

 

[Gunny2862]

I think part of my confusion is related to we are talking swimming and somehow the Canoeing came in and while the two are nearly hand-in-hand you seem(to me) to be conflating the two while there ARE differences in how they are handled.

Plus depending on the inflection you are intending vice the one I may be reading I have may been receiving an unintended message.

 

Thank you for your clarification, but many of us have heard that Liability word thrown around one time too many, and those who use it to bolster an argument without the specifics of a situation tend to get asked a few more questions - you don't win an argument ( discussion )on this forum by just throwing down the bugaboo.

 

[LIBob]

Thank you Gunny, and if I went over the top at you I apologize.

 

(Hmm, I just got an idea for a thread but will avoid mentioning it here.)

 

 

[SSScout]

World's biggest swimming hole: The Atlantic Ocean.

Surf beach at Assateague Island. Two adults, two Scout LGs watch and count heads. Buddy system, but because of surf noise, no call is possible. Scouts in the shallows, out in the surf with boogie boards. Current and wind moves them down the beach, whistle blows, everyone comes out, hike 400 yards back up the beach to our "campsite". Public area, but no official LGs. EVERYONE looks when our whistle sounds, but our Scouts keep in the group. Scout LGs and adults are spelled every so often. Fun, salt, sand, sunscreen, burgers and watermelon for dinner. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[LIBob]

SSScout,

It sounds like you ahd a great time.

 

Still when swiming in an ungurded swimming hole THAT big you prolly should followed procedure and set usp swim zones, brought aa whistle for buddy check etc.

 

 

 

Wednesday, July 30, 2008

EAST TAWAS - A camping trip up north turned to tragedy Friday for a group of Boy Scouts and their young urban guests when a 12-year-old boy from Lansing drowned in Lake Huron.

 

The incident occurred on the southeast side of Tawas Point State Park in the parks designated swimming area.

http://www.iosconews.com/articles/2008/07/30/news/news02.txt

 

 

11-Year-Old Drowns During Boy Scout Boating Trip

POSTED: 10:13 pm PDT June 7, 2008

http://www.kptv.com/news/16541264/detail.html

 

 

 

Kingston Eagle Scout drowns in Plymouth boating accident

E-mail|Link May 12, 2010 01:49 PM

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/05/two_men_rescued.html

 

 

Jul 2, 2008

 

Eagle Scout Drowns In Walker County

Funeral services are set for Thursday for a 17 year old Eagle Scout who died two days after a being pulled from the bottom of a pool. On Friday Montgromery teen Hayden O'Brien was seen motionless at the bottom of a pool at Elkins Lake's in Walker County. Lifeguards pulled him out. He wasn't breathing and didn't have a pulse. He was revived twice before being flown by a PHI medical helicopter to a Conroe hospital. He died on Sunday.

http://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines/22814094.html

 

 

WARREN TWP., Ohio -- A family is grieving tonight after a six-year-old boy drowned in a backyard swimming pool in Warren Township.

 

It happened shortly after 7 p.m. Saturday, at a cub scout pool party at a home on North Leavitt Road. The house belongs to pack leader Erik Hoover.

http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-pool-party-tragedy-6-yo-drowns-txt,0,7023124.story

 

 

Boy Scouts examine safety after drowning

Until reviews are complete, swimming will be prohibited in the lake at Sand Hill Scout Reservation.

DUANE BOURNE

Published July 29, 2003

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/07/29/news_pf/Tampabay/Boy_Scouts_examine_sa.shtml

 

 

 

 

[LIBob]

 

Anyway SSscout,

 

maybe I am missing something, but I really don't "get" what you did.

 

SMT set up a basically safe swimming area and, because the entire swimming hole was quite small, he ran a safe swim (albeit one that was technically non-compliant with BSA standards.)

 

I don't want to rush to judgement but it seems to me like yo are saying "BSA rules are stupid and we should make up our own as we go along. .. basically you can set up a couple lifeguards and swim however you want."

 

I can certainly imagine SM's holding such view, but I wonder

- is that REALLY the view that you hold? (I may have misunderstood),

- if you really hold such a view, why would you post it on a scouting website?

[Beavah]

Yah, LIBob, not sure where you're goin' with all that, eh? SSScout described no fewer than 4 lifeguards, so I don't know where yeh get "unguarded".

 

If I may suggest, rather than just postin' a bunch of Google results, yeh actually do some analysis to pull out for folks what da lessons of each case study should be. That's more helpful. I don't think any of da cases support the point you're tryin' to make. Let's go through 'em:

 

#1 East Tawas Drowning

This was not a scouting group, eh? It was actually a LFL group on a private outing, so SSD didn't apply. Three lads in a buddy group were playin' around near the edge of the marked swimming area, when da adults who were supervising called 'em in. Two of the lads swam/waded to shore, but one was tired and got caught in waves near the marker buoy. Rescue was done relatively well and quickly, but the lad didn't survive.

 

So what was da lesson yeh were trying to make? The swim area was marked, the boys were in a buddy group, the area was being supervised. The adult leaders were not trained lifeguards, but SSD doesn't require trained lifeguards per se (goin' back to my point earlier in the thread). Both help and rescue equipment were available and utilized.

 

What lesson would yeh draw? About all we can speculate on is maybe the lad wasn't a strong enough swimmer, but that's not really clear.

 

#2 Clackamas River Drowning

Yah, this was a boating not a swimming accident, eh? The Clackamas on that section is a Class II river. The lad was in the canoe with an adult, which capsized. During the rescue, someone else in the troop threw a line to the lad, but lost control of the line and let go. The line wrapped around the boy's wrist, and the other end chockstoned between some rocks. As a result, the rescue line pinned the boy underwater in current.

 

What lesson would yeh have us take from that? Da local sheriff reported that the accident was unforeseeable and unavoidable by a group of any experience level. About da only lesson is what all us paddlers know - that putting lines in water is dangerous, eh? They tend to get wrapped around people in the darndest ways. Yeh should never do it without both good training and a knife handy. Still, this was da right place to throw a line, and even the best folks lose control of 'em occasionally.

 

#3 Man drowns when boat sinks off Kingston

Yah, so this case involves a 19-year-old man who is driving a motor boat on a calm night. Neither he nor his buddy are drinking or under the influence. Both are wearin' PFDs. There's speculation that they might be inexperienced, but there's nothing wrong with their navigation. Their boat for reasons unknown springs a leak. They issue a timely MayDay, but da boat sinks. Delays in the SAR cause the man to drown as a result of cold water hypothermia.

 

What lesson would yeh have us draw from that? Healthy men shouldn't go boating? Best to be fat so yeh can hold up to hypothermia longer? About all I can think of is that it would have been nice if they had had strobes on their life jackets, but it's not clear from da reports whether the rescue delay was from havin' a hard time locating 'em or not. And strobes aren't a SA or a Coast Guard requirement, eh?

 

#4 17 year old dies in pool

Yah, here again we have a non-scout outing, eh? The boy, an Eagle Scout and therefore a swimmer, is at a local pool, with marked swim areas and lifeguards present. For unknown reasons he loses consciousness underwater, but da lifeguards respond promptly and revive him. Unfortunately, he dies of complications.

 

What's da lesson here? Maybe if he had a buddy the response could have been faster, but we all know that buddies do in fact get separated for a minute or two here or there.

 

#5 Cub Scout dies in backyard pool

Yah, I can only comment on da limited public record, eh? Here's a small backyard pool, and a well-planned cub scout event. Ten adults around. Swim activities are over, boy is getting dressed to go home, when for some reason he goes back to da pool to get something. He's discovered relatively quickly, but doesn't make it.

 

What's the lesson here, pray tell? This is da nightmare of every parent of a young boy. One moment he's playing in the front yard, the next he runs out in front of a car chasing a ball. No amount of supervision can prevent that. Swimming activities were over, boys and parents were getting dressed and going home. What part of SSD tells us to put a lifeguard on an empty pool?

 

#6 Camp Staffer panics in pond

Yah, so here's another odd one. Two camp staffers decide to take a short cut and wade across a spur of a pond that is normally a dry lakebed, assumin' that it's going to be shallow. One of 'em, a strong swimmer, steps into a hole over his head and completely panics. In his panic, he drowns, despite da efforts of his buddy to save him and a relatively fast rescue.

 

What lesson would yeh have us take from this one? Don't take short cuts?

 

Honestly, da lesson here is probably "teach every boy to be a strong, comfortable swimmer so that they don't panic like this." Maybe the lad skipped Swimming MB and its clothes-on practice in favor of Cycling MB. But this wasn't a swim activity; it wasn't a camp activity at all.

 

-----

 

I reckon I just can't figure out what point you're tryin' to make from these cases, eh? They're all over da place, and most of 'em fall in the "true accident" category. None of 'em were clear violations of any SSD/SA stuff, and most it's hard to find any real fault with anything.

 

Care to explain? Seems like you're sayin' BSA rules would prevent all of these, as if by magic. I just don't see it. But then, I don't believe in magic.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)