swimming holes & aquatics safety

[Scoutfish]

 

 

I almost agree with you. Matter of fact, I would havebeen inclined to agree with you as far as saying " Do not swim past the line created by this tree and that boulder. That is the 6' line"

- Assuming you were talking to the beginner swimmers.

 

BUT...and it's a very big BUT... SSD specifically points out that scouts do not particulary think about themselves, do noyt pay attention to their specifi wherabouts and do not have concerns about themselves.

 

Basically stated..the scout will swear until his face is blue that he will follow the rule concerning the tree/boulder line - and he may have all intentions to and truely plan too. But then he'd have to stare non stop at the tree and boulder to do so.

 

That scout wil cross that line without meaning to or realizing it.

It's not a matter of trust or intent...it's a matter of real life and practicality.

 

But if you had more than the 1 mature adult present as required by SSD - I suppose one of the adults could act as the barrier and stand at the 3 1/2 foot line and keep vigilant watch over the non swimmers.

 

But then you'd have to have another adult stand at the 6' foot line for the begginners and at the 12' line which is even tougher than an adult standing at the 6 foot line.

 

Say, how tall are the adults in your area?

 

Anyways, it would be tough for even your most experiences scouts to completely watch where they were as far as borders and lines go. The youngers ones? Never will happen!

[Scoutfish]

Okay, I meant 5 ' line. For some reason I keep thinking of myself at 6'2" and that 5' would be at my shoulders. But I'm also taller than your average person too.

 

 

 

 

No sir! It absolutely shows that the SSD IS NOT understood.

 

If so, there would be no swimming at all.

 

The two main , and most important qualities in SSD are : Qualified supervision and Discipline.

 

Quality supervisoin does not allow the boys to maintain that they will watch their own imaginary line.

 

Discipline dictates that you don't trust them to nor do you casually brush off the stringent rules of SSD.

[SMT224]

Scoutfish -

 

Believe me, I fully understand SSD and the rational for it's existence.

 

I also know that we must be sensible when implementing the SSD to ensure we are not just following rules blindly. For example, in a swimming situation where all the Scouts in a group are swimmers, it is necessary to set up a non-swimmers area? Or a beginners area? I think not. And yet, per your last post, it's either all or noting - either we follow SSD fully and completely each and every time or no swimming.

 

I understand and appreciate your conviction, but disagree with your black&white assessment of SSD implementation when it comes to a small swimming hole that is also used by the public. And especially if it's a small group of Scouts that are all swimmers. I believe we as leaders need to assess each and every situation on a case-by-case basis and do what is best for our Scouts.

[shortridge]

SMT -

 

I read your original post to mean that you had a mixed-ability group. But if the group is all swimmers, then of course you don't need to designate the areas. The markings, buoys, lines, etc., are for the Scouts' safety, not to satisfy some random rule.

 

But if you do have a group with non-swimmers, beginners and swimmers, then you do need to mark off the area as SSD prescribes. If you don't, you're not conducting a safe swim under the rules that you agreed to when you took SSD training. It's simple. Saying the rules don't apply because other people use the swim area is simply grasping for straws.

 

Here's a thought. Say you go swimming this summer at one of these holes and don't put up the markers. Next summer, one of your Scouts takes SSD training as part of his BSA Lifeguard certification, and notes the discrepancy in what the rules are and what you guys did. How do you explain that?

[SMT224]

Shortridge -

Thanks for your input. I am not suggesting an abandonment of SSD rules or thoroughly inconsistent application. My thoughts are focusing on a sensible and rational application of the existing guidance.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, shortridge, I'm curious.

 

When yeh go to the local public pool or state park lake which doesn't have a separate roped off beginner area (sometimes they have a roped off deep-water swimmers area, sometimes they don't)... do yeh start putting up ropes? Seems like that would lead yeh to be escorted to the door .

 

SSD was developed for the camps, eh? That's its history, and that's why all BSA camps are set up that way. It made its way into the G2SS from there (G2SS is a compilation of stuff from other places, not a stand-alone document). It's a good program, but we can't impose it on da YMCA pool when we go visit, nor can we hog up a public swimming hole. The elements, though, can still be thought through and kept in place.

 

Yeh mention that you're not particularly experienced on the aquatics front, so perhaps yeh need to step back just a bit from giving such strident advice. One of da things that beginners often do is that they hold on to the "rules" like a lifeline, without really understandin' their application. Nothing wrong with that, it's helpful to beginners. But not one of da council aquatics directors I know would take quite the same line as you are if they were asked this question.

 

Beavah

 

[shortridge]

SMT224,

 

Thanks - I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Hope you guys have a good time this summer!

 

Beavah,

 

I find myself wondering if we're reading the same document. The SSD material that I've been reading and going by is all about running safe swim areas in natural locations, not at pools. It's expressly designed for unit leaders out in the field, *not* at developed camps.

 

I freely admit that I'm not an aquat. What I know is from my SSD training and the materials I have, which are perfectly clear to me. I agreed to follow the rules; there they are, in black & white. I just don't see the need to decide that the rules are just guidelines.

[Gunny2862]

I don't really see the point of infringing on someone else's developed pool with my balloons or Milk jugs and weights, but even at someone else's pool the boys need swim buddies, the supervising adult needs a method to tag the pairs in or out whether or not it's little metal rings with colored markings, pairs of sticks with their names on them or a simple list.

 

The water and pool still need to be surveyed - is that actually the bottom or is there a chemical cloud obscuring the bottom?

 

OTOH, at the lakeside or at casual swimming holes even if we didn't hang our own markers, even running thru the process mentally is a higher degree of safety than just putting the boys in the water and reacting to any issues after the fact without thinking about them first.

 

I was so happy on our most recent outing when a fifteen year old BSAL stopped the boys from walking into a stream/swimming hole until he could get an adult on site, check the bottom with two older/taller Scouts, check the outflow end, did an improvised turbidity check, reminded himself who was what swim class and then arranged Supervisor, Spotter and himself before turning the boys loose - and I never had to say a word.

 

Now if they'd only get that good a hold on the rest of the stuff they should run...

[Scoutfish]

Nah, not a blind B&W assesmant.

 

I too had the impression you were going to have a mixed group:

 

"

 

Prior to arriving at the holes I intent to have the Safe Swim Defense talk with the Scouts, establish buddy groups based on ability groups, designate lookouts and life guards, and then do establish causal & unmarked ability areas when we arrive (i.e. non-swimmers stay over there, beginners don't go past those there rocks, swimmers can go anywhere)."

 

But if it was a complete group of swimmers only...or only non swimmers only...Then I don't see a problem as you base the whole "swim" on that groups ability.

 

AS far as "established" pools or such..most established pools have either marking or already have a rope/float line in place to denote the drop off area.

 

You can bet that a BSA camp is eitrher already set up...OR you WILL adhear to the SSD rules.

 

But read trhrough SSD again..as shortridge pointed out...SSD pretty much is for natural areas or areas that are not already set up or established.

 

Now, again, if you follow SSD , there is not a "pain to trhe public" exceptionary rule or "public inconveinence opt out".

 

I gre up with a B GUn in my hand. Tore them aprt, repaired them, fixed them and could reassemle them blindfolded.

 

Have been acknowledges as an exceptiopal marksman ( rifle only, suck at pistols) and told I should have beem a sniper in the military.

 

But when it comes to BB Guns, you bet I will follow BSA guidlines..even if all my boys have years of experience.

 

The bottom line is this: In the rare event something tragic does happen, are you gonna be able to look at anybody and say: "Well, we didn't want to be a bother and we did point out an imaginary line!"

 

Of course, stuff can still happen, but at least you won't have to wonder if you didn't do enough.

 

 

Also note that SSD does allow fine tuning based on the boys abilities...so if all are capable "SWIMMERS" and not begginers or non swimmers...then you could indeed forgo dividing into the 3 differet areas of Safety .

[Beavah]

You can bet that a BSA camp is eitrher already set up...OR you WILL adhear to the SSD rules.

 

Yah, sure. Until yeh do the mile swim. Or go snorkeling. Or da lake gets a bit too turbid. Ever seen a camp cancel all waterfront activity for that?

 

All this is why we have Aquatics Directors and BSA Lifeguards and the like, eh? Trained folks with some experience who can interpret and apply the guidelines to the specific circumstances. Dat's why the first requirement of SSD is proper supervision, eh?

 

Shortridge's SSD duty as a non-aquatics guy is to step aside and let the folks with aquatics experience set up da system. If he doesn't have folks with experience to set up the system he shouldn't be doin' it at all. Certainly shouldn't be directing others. Half an hour of online trainin' ain't enough for that. That online training was meant to tell non-aquatics folks "hey, you don't know enough to do this on your own. Job 1 is gettin' qualified people who can run this."

 

Now, again, if you follow SSD , there is not a "pain to trhe public" exceptionary rule or "public inconveinence opt out".

 

Yah, right! Unfortunately, there's also not a "but they're Boy Scouts, and Boy Scouts can do what they want" opt out of the rules and regulations of the pool or state park lake, eh?

 

Yeh all may have different local pools, but none of da pools I've ever been to has separate non-swimmer, beginner, and swimmer areas. Some have a line separating the deep water (swimmer from beginner) but none have the other one. Most, especially the open-water ones, do not. And nobody is goin' to let you string your own lines or appoint your own lifeguards in their swim area.

 

Just the way it is. We Boy Scouts are courteous to other visitors, and respect da rules of the landowners whose lands we use. Those things are in da G2SS and BSA training too, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[shortridge]

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I've been out of town and tied up with work for a while. Beavah, you wrote:

 

Shortridge's SSD duty as a non-aquatics guy is to step aside and let the folks with aquatics experience set up da system. If he doesn't have folks with experience to set up the system he shouldn't be doin' it at all. Certainly shouldn't be directing others. Half an hour of online trainin' ain't enough for that. That online training was meant to tell non-aquatics folks "hey, you don't know enough to do this on your own. Job 1 is gettin' qualified people who can run this."

 

I respect your opinion, but also just as respectfully disagree with your take on SSD. Again, as above, I have the feeling that you and I are reading two different documents or took two different training courses. SSD is expressly designed for an adult leader to run a unit swimming activity. It does not require a BSA aquatics director/supervisor or even a BSA Lifeguard. Nor does it require someone with that level of training to interpret the rules - that's why they're so straightforward and simply written. I've taken SSD training multiple times over the years since the mid-'90s. At no time did the trainer inform me that the SSD training was worthless because I wasn't experienced enough to set up a safe swim area. To the contrary, SSD training qualifies me to set up a safe swim area, using the explicit rules that I agreed to follow. I don't see much wiggle room there.

 

============

 

As to your previous questions about what to do with ability areas at a public pool - really, I don't know, because I've never encountered that situation. My troop and OA chapter always had the privilege of using a private pool owned by a huge Scouting supporter. However, I would point out one misconception about using public pools - you wrote: "And nobody is goin' to let you string your own lines or appoint your own lifeguards in their swim area." SSD only requires unit lifeguards "in areas where lifeguards are not provided by others."

 

============

 

Again, if the OP's unit on these trips just includes all swimmers, then the entire thing becomes a moot point.

[Beavah]

I respect your opinion, but also just as respectfully disagree with your take on SSD. Again, as above, I have the feeling that you and I are reading two different documents or took two different training courses. SSD is expressly designed for an adult leader to run a unit swimming activity. It does not require a BSA aquatics director/supervisor or even a BSA Lifeguard.

 

Nah, I think yeh missed the major point of the trainin', shortridge. SSD is definitely not expressly designed for an adult leader to run a unit swimming activity. No 30-minute online training could accomplish that, and we would never claim that it could.

 

SSD training is "awareness" training, like Climb on Safely or Safety Afloat or whatnot. Just because you've taken SSD doesn't mean you're qualified to supervise aquatics activity, any more than taking da 30 minute Climb on Safely course qualifies you to supervise climbing or Safety Afloat qualifies you to run a whitewater raft trip.

 

The first point of SSD, Qualified Supervision, is the major piece of the puzzle, eh? One of da two things that forms the "bread" that makes the Safety Sandwich, remember? Da point is to make people aware of what they don't know, and to tell 'em to seek out experienced help when necessary.

 

"All swimming activity must be supervised by a mature and conscientious adult age 21 or older who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of youth members in his or her care, who is experienced in the water and confident of being able to respond in the event of an emergency, and who is trained in and committed to compliance with the eight points of BSA Safe Swim Defense. (It is strongly recommended that all units have at least one adult or older youth member currently trained as a BSA Lifeguard to assist in the planning and conduct of all swimming activity.)"

 

So what yeh should have taken from the training is that generally speaking, it takes someone with lifesaving skills and experience to supervise swimming activities. Doesn't have to be a BSA lifeguard, could be ARC, could be other agencies, could be da college swim team ASM and his buddies, but that level of skill and experience, eh?

 

If yeh don't have that, then you should find someone who has it, and then defer to their judgment and experience as supervisor. SSD doesn't qualify you to supervise, or to direct others in running a swim setup. Again, 30 minutes of online trainin' doesn't give anyone da experience to be trusted with that sort of thing. It takes more skill and knowledge than can be conveyed in a Flash presentation to understand how to apply the 8 points to novel circumstances like what SMT224 is talkin' about.

 

The point that we want you to take from SSD is that you shouldn't guess how to do it, and you shouldn't claim that you can do it on your own by reading the 8 points off your card. You should find qualified supervision. And then, Point 8, demonstrate the discipline to follow whatever directions da qualified supervisor gives.

 

If you are running swim events as supervisor or directing others just by virtue of having taken SSD, then you failed the training.

 

Beavah

 

[qwazse]

I'd have to echo Bevah on this one. My first real rescue was when I was the only guy in a pool surrounded by swimmers (youth group, private pool) to identify a freind who was drowning. A simple "reach" saved the day with zero fanfare, but if it weren't for prior consecutive years of red-cross/bsa "in water" training, I would have missed it.

 

My take on SSD is that it outlines the "minimum standard", and STRONGLY ENCOURAGES you to get "physically" trained adults and youth on your aquatics activities. If you're the only one in the group who has read GSS, and none of your adults have even practiced guarding in the past couple of years, be very concerned.

 

For example, I'm re-upping BSA guard at summer camp in two weeks. The paper requirements are pretty much the same, but it seems harder everytime. However, it models the scout motto to our youth. And I rest easier knowing what to expect of myself and any youth who has life-guarding skills.

[Gunny2862]

Okay Disclaimers first: I am a current BSAL©, I have one Youth BSAL also current, I have an ASM who will pursue and I have no doubt complete BSAL certification possibly continuing on to the Counselor certification module also, at this upcoming Summer camp - in this area with a troop of less than 30 I have a wealth of resources in Water safety. I currently have one non-swimmer(swims okay, hasn't learned to float yet...) the rest are all "Blue" Swimmers.

 

It isn't explicitly spelled out by BSA and in a perfect world I prefer Beavah's interpretation. However, I've not ever seen in the SSD (unlike in Climb on Safely) where the subject matter expert is required. A Responsible Adult as defined in SSD is the central figure and the Steps of SSD are the central requirements of SSD, at least for know. Will that change? Should that Change? I have my own opinions.

 

On the other hand, Given the OP's original scenario. And given that he applies the SSD rules, for the area he describes and presuming we have a very slow movement of water or better a non-discernible movement, for the minimum guidelines I don't know that I see an issue here.

 

Can I see circumstances where in his shoes I wouldn't put boys in the water - of course, we had an outing two weeks ago where I put the kibosh on one site(a rather nasty stream with cloudy water and a current that was to close to the edge of what I 'd tolerate if it were perfectly clear) and where my youth BSAL opened another(different body of water) - ensuring he did everything EXCEPT stringing the swim areas which given the size and depth of the area he chose would have been complete overkill maybe 10x15 with a max depth of 4.5 feet and cold enough we put a fifteen minute in water time limit on it.

 

The fact is they(BSA) left us some wiggle room here, Should we err on the side of safety, of course, but in the final assessment they're safest at home in front of their parents if we choose to go to the extreme. So use some common sense, follow the rules and have fun.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[SMT224]

Well, were back from our first swimming hole adventure, and all survived and had a great time!!

 

We started out playing in a stream, and worked our way down to a small hole that was about 20'x30', mostly ranging in depth from a foot to 4 feet, with a couple areas that were a bit more than 5 feet deep. Nothing was over my head. We had 12 Scouts, one of whom was a beginner, the rest swimmers. No diving or jumping was allowed. We had two adults on shore at all times with throw bags and one adult in the water, as well as a Scout lookout on shore at all times. We defined where the deepest areas were and told the beginner to stay out of those areas, and then kept a close eye on him, as well as everyone else. Everyone has a buddy and stayed with their buddy. The Scouts mostly liked the slick rock shoot that carried the stream water into the pool - both sliding down it and trying to climb back up it.

 

What we did not do was to string up ropes all over the place to define beginner vs. swimmer areas. In order to fully cordon off the two deeper areas would have required at least 8 ropes to box in the area - and it would have been beyond absurd. And considering that there were a number of other folks using the swimming hole, it would have been ludicrously inconsiderate. And further, considering the colorful nature of some of the locals sharing the hole with us, as well as the beverages they were abundantly consuming, it would have put us in a potentially conflicting situation.

 

As it was, I believe we did fine - the Scouts were safe, they had fun, we were prepared to handle any difficulties that might arise. We shared the water with other people who enjoyed the cool water on a hot day. What more could we have done to fulfill SSD?