Charter Organization denying women as assistant Scoutmaster or the option to campout with troop

[Greaves]

It is my opinion that the policy of the church in the original post is reactionary rather than proactive.

 

I suspect that something happened sometime in the past that made leadership say, "the genders must be separate--including separate hotels for males and females." Not letting women camp isn't the key fact--it's the separate hotels that leads me to this conclusion. It sounds to me that this church, rightly or wrongly, feels that they suborned fornication in some form or fashion within the Troop.

 

I think it would be of value for gender-separate units to tell prospective families up front that they are a male-only-on-campouts units. Sure would save a lot of fuss & bother when Mom finds out she's not quite as welcome as Dad is.

 

I'm going to ask, when it's my sons' turn to cross over. That and "would the den remain together as a new Scout patrol, or be integrated into existing patrols?" are on my list.

[Pack212Scouter]

Ok...I'm still trying to figure out why it is sexism or devaluing to women if a CO wants to have men lead their male youth program? Somehow I doubt that most of the women (and men) decrying this would have the same reaction if the CO says that they only want women leading their female youth program. There are many reasons that may exist for a same-sex situation, and very few of those have ANYTHING to do with sexism or saying that women are less valuable than men. Respect the CO's and their members beliefs. If it doesn't line up with yours then go to another CO where it does, it's that simple.

[moosetracker]

Good morning!

 

I am releived that I did not break friendships in this forum.. Some people come and go, but there is a core group that have been around for a long time. I do not want to do anything to damage that relationship.

 

Pack212 - If I had a girl and she went into girlscouts and the unit told me that men could not be leaders I would walk.. So you are wrong. I would want my daughter to learn and respect diversity the same way. The value and perspective of a male role model would be as important to me as the value and perspective of a female role model.

 

Take my sons girlfriend. She is in a family which had two daughters. So her father gets involved in his daughters activities. I commend him. I wish more fathers could drop the macho act and do the same. I would like to think this man, had he had sons and daughters would have equally wanted to be involved in both their activities.

 

I can see the need for boy and girl separated activities with teenagers especially. (I would not fight an English BSA policy in the future. But the co-ed Venture program gives the Adult leader many more headaches then the seperated programs.) I do not see the need for Male Only or Female only Adult Leaders.

 

Young men need to see that some women have skills equal to men. Young women need to know that their activities are equal to that of men. They also need to be encouraged to do activities that are more adventurous. Runs the risk that in the next generation you may have more females wanting to be ASM's in boy scouts because they have the skills.. But, likewise more males can became leaders in the girl scouts.. Over time man may even stop hinting at other men having feminine traits in order to insult them.

 

I am not talking of a BSA Troop that is predominately Lead by females. Or a Girl Scout troop that is predominately run by males.. A women or two Female Adult leaders in a group of 10 or 20 male leaders is not going to kill the ability for the men to be Male Role models. A family with a wife and husband, does not cancel out the ability for the father to be a male role model to the son.

 

Women add the value of diversity. Plain and simple. One of BSA's values is to instill in or scouts the ability to respect diversity.

 

I agree with John-in-KC's opinions. Well said John.

 

I might think twice if the male leader had no daughters or wife in the program (past or present). I would probably have to talk to him about his motivation and draw conclusions for myself that they were honest ones.. But, to be equally fair the same would be true of a woman with no sons or husband (past or present) in the BSA program. That is not to say, I would automatically label them perverts.. Our CO was a woman who was raised in the BSA program because her fathers career was in the program.

 

The problem is not with the not allowing the women to go on overnights. Not my belief, but if you allowed women to be ASM with that one condition. I would not take your values as stating that women do not make good role-models for men.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Here's my deal in all of this:

 

I am not saying who should or shouldn't charter a scout group, wether cub or boy. I'm not saying anybody shouldn't charter a girl scout group either.

 

I am not saying wether anybody should follow any particular set of beliefs. Iam not challenging anybody's particular way of thinking.

 

All I am and was saying is that any parent has the right to pull their child from a program run by a church if they ( meaning the parent) do not agree with it.

 

That parent also has the right to pull their child froma civic group run program and an extra cirricular after school activity activity too.

 

For instance, I used to be a member of a particular church that felt if a woman dressed provocatively and happened to get raped, it was viewed as the womans fault. As if men are completely free of being responcible for any chices they make.

 

That same church wanted to buy the 1/2 acre adjoining the church property. At that point, the preacher told all the men to meet after the service to discuss it. The church refused to even talk to two women members of the church who happened to own 2 different real etste office that have been around for more than 20 years each..one being the biggest office for around 30 moiles in any direction. This is on the east coast of NC so you can image the # of offices around.

 

You guessed it ; I am no longer a member of that church by my choosing.

 

You want to join that church? Go ahead with my blessing ( not that it matters). I have great friends that still go their. I'm on a very friendly basis with the preacher still. But I cannot be a member of that church due to what I consider a bogus view towards women.

 

THat's my personal belief and it's just as valid as any belief of any church!

[SMT224]

So, nwasness... have the voices around this virtual campfire addressed your query?

 

Did you find another Troop?

 

What say ye now?

 

 

[moosetracker]

I think nwasness, made her decision and left somewhere around page 1. Since then, we have been discussing this issue amongst ourselves.

 

Last I knew her decision was :

I think my mind has been changed by Moosetracker & Irsap. I going to talk to my son and go visit some other troops. I know of one that will except my son and I with open arms.

 

So:

A) she is talking to her son.

B) she is moving to a different troop.

C) her son will be involved in looking at the other troops in the area, and helping to make a good choice.

D) It may be the one who really wants her son and her to join them, but it may not..

 

So as far as the OP, my reasoning (and Irsap) was what she choose.. Since then it has just been "friendly" bickering between opinionated scouters.

 

[Basementdweller]

Moosetracker you are incorrect.

 

She said "I will find another troop" Not he or my son.

 

Another type A Cub Scout Parent who doesn't get Boy Scouting

[SMT224]

Me thinks you correct moosetracker. Here we are, tossing another log on the fire, long after the OP has crawled in to her tent. Nothing like beating a dead horse to death. :-)

 

[moosetracker]

Yeah, but ain't it fun.. And why not debat amongst ourselves, we may not be the originator of the question, but if we have issues, why not settle them.

 

Basementdweller - I might need correction but so do you..

 

She said : I going to talk to my son and go visit some other troops..

 

Now I took that to mean that since she is talking to her son her son her son is now included into the 2nd part of that sentence.. So she is now included in the going to visit other troops..

 

You took it to mean : I going to talk to my son and (*I will*) go visit some other troops..

 

In truth she did not state the "I" or the "we" in the visit of other troops.. Therefore we do not know if the boy went with her to choose the troop or not.. We both infered into that sentence what we wanted to read out of it..

 

But if I said, "I am going to talk to my husband then search for a house to buy.." I would not assume that my statement meant that my husband would be excluded in the house shopping. Although I did not state that "we" would search for the house.. So, maybe I would just surprise him.

[zippyboro]

"Um, Zippy, your prejudice is showing, or maybe it's just snobbery.

 

Where exactly is "around here"? Is it a particular part of the country or is it just the sand pile you have your head buried in? "

 

^^ummm... gee thanks, Twocubdad :|

 

I fail to see how stating that fact that where I live, in New England, not allowing females to serve in troop leadership positions would not be accepted (and therefore being glad of that fact) makes me a snob. If it does, then I am proud to be one! Our troop has a few female ASMs in addition to the advancement chair. The boys have no problem with this... there is plenty of male role model leadership as well. My point was that most/many parents do not realize the supervisory role that the CO can have over the troop or pack. It has been my experience, that troops are selected by parents and scouts based on how they are run, who is in them and what they do... not who the CO is. I think the public perception is that BSA rules and guidelines are a national thing... not something to be altered by CO's as they see fit.

[Engineer61]

Find another troop....I suspect your problems are only beginning.

[perdidochas]

A few observations:

1) Initially, I thought this should be up to the scout, now I disagree. The parents shouldn't choose the troop the scout is joining, but they should have veto power. A CO that has such different values than the parents wouldn't be a good fit. As Engineer said, there are more problems in the future with this troop.

 

2) The different motels rule sounds like it was caused by either a rumor or an incident in the past.

 

3) Most boy's schools or girl's schools, while they only have students of one gender, have teachers of both genders.

 

4) I'm glad the CO of my son's troop is pretty mellow about things like this.

[sherminator505]

The CO does have the right to exclude women from leadership roles in its Troop if it chooses. Granted, they are severely limiting themselves in both numbers of adults and their availability, quite possibly to their detriment, and they are practicing very poor public relations...

[moosetracker]

YES! more people with opinions similar to mine! I like it!

 

Zippy, Things did get a little heated on this topic for a while. Sorry.. Maybe TwoCubDad lives in the South, and didn't care for the blanket statement.. Don't know..

 

So for the sake of diversity.. Let me add, to my list. "If I went to a troop and they didn't let Southerners be ASM, SM.. I would walk.."

[acco40]

What if you went to a troop and they didn't allow a 20 year old, highly qualified in child psychology, camping skills, physical fitness, knot tying, citizenship, etc. skills be a Scoutmaster? Would you walk?

 

One thing I noticed when I was Scoutmaster was that some of the Scouts "clicked" much better with certain SAs than they did with me. So, I utilized that connection. I'm not indicating that they were "better" or not.

 

I think people tend to confuse equality under the law with being the same. I'm not female. I'm not black. I'm not right handed. That makes me in some instances, a better role model or teacher to a left handed, white, male. That does not mean I'm in favor of excluding certain folk or make me "better" in any way.

 

I just feel that if a Scout Troop feels it is in the best interest of the Scouts to limit leadership to males let them. I may not agree but please don't jump to a conclusion that that they are teaching or believe that women or inferior to men.