Charter Organization denying women as assistant Scoutmaster or the option to campout with troop

[Eagle92]

I think BP is write and this is getting a little out of hand.

 

I think that we all agree that BSA policy is to allow women in leadership roles.

 

I think that we all agree that COs do have the right to be more restrictive in choosing leaders, even if we do not like those reasons.

 

I think that everyone agrees that parents to have the right to remove their sons form a troop that they find morally and ethically wrong.

 

And I think that we can all agree that any parent that puts their own self interest before the best interest of their son is wrong.

[Scoutfish]

>>

 

What better way to say you totally believe it , than to stick with and support the group who imposes such rules?

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

 

 

Apparently not. Seems like a few think the choice is totally up to the boy and the mom should just step back and say nothing.

 

 

Brent:

 

Look, I'm not saying the Co should be shut down, disbanded or loose their BSA charter.

 

All I am saying is that the mom has the right as well as overpowering authority to supercede all decisions that are made by her "not yet legal age " son when it comes to moralistic beliefs.

 

The Co sustains a belife or viewpoint contradictory to what the mom holds as a parent.

 

As parents...we all have the right to step in and take over.....our authority trumps the CO's in this regard. Wether about women, God, family duty or whatever else.

 

The fact that the Co is associated with scouting is a distraction and in reality, not the issue here. Obviously, with all the training the mom has and experience too, she had no qualms with BSA or it's policies. By taking her son out of this CO and finding another, she proves she is cool with and supportive of Scouting and BSA.

 

This is not a mom vs BSA issue.!

 

This is a mom not bending over to a CO's morals and beliefs just so her son can be something that he can also be elsewhere!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[BrentAllen]

Scoutfish, can you really not understand that these are the beliefs of their church? That the women who join that church do so because they share those beliefs? This is their religion - is it that hard to understand?? When you bash them, you are bashing their religion!?!? These same churchs don't allow women to be pastors - is that sexism, too??

 

If you don't agree with their beliefs, then fine - don't join their church or Troop. As a Scout, you have a duty to respect their religion and not bash it. How can this be that hard to understand?

[moosetracker]

scoutfish -Oh, I know I am not alone on this point of view.. I guess I am just being the most vocal.. Even the people who are on the fence, saying they don't have enough info, or they can see both sides.. My arguement is not with you.

 

With your last statement Scoutfish, You might even be more adament then me. As my viewpoint is more that they are entitled to their opinion, (with some of your comments I will add, "up to a point").. So my leaving would not be a statement for them to change, just a right to be able to choose for my son the values I wish.. I would have that right. Now if you are breaking the law especially in front of scouts (stealing, drinking, child molesting), I will do more then walk, I will pull in law enforcement.

 

I wouldn't put sexism in the catagory of child molesting. Sexism is very twisted, it can be a crime, or it can be values.. Crime if you do not hire/ promote, or pay less to a women based on her gender.. Value if you believe only men can be good role models to boys based on similar gender.. Or the man is the head of the household and the wife follows his rules..

 

My value (My families value, since my husband agrees) dictates my son learns that women are equal to men so that he will grow up to be a leader who treats men and women as equals.. So that his values will not cause him to someday as a future leader commit a crime of sexism... Values // Crime two different things.. But, the fine line is difficult to distinguish.

 

It is the same thing I want him to learn about all people of differnt race/ color/ gender / religion etc. etc. etc. It is my belief as to what reverence is all about. Enjoy peoples diversities and learn that diversity makes a stronger team then all being the same. So in order to practice reverence.. I will say this.. As long as the troop values are not criminal, I will not force them to change. If you want to believe that an all-male troop is better. Fine.. Believe that.

 

But if you tell me that once my child enters your troop, if I wish to pull him, I cannot because it is no longer my decision. If your troop instill in my child the belief that he has the right to make his own decisions for himself. If you advise him that he can listen to my reasoning, but does not have to abide by my decisions.. You are taking away my parental rights. That is criminal..

 

Now you can say "We would not say that to the child.. Just the mother.." Great it is not criminal, but you are simply dead WRONG.

 

Thank-you Scoutfish, twoCubdad,Basementdweller and others for your support.

Thank-you Snowwhite, Gunny, BadenP and others for keeping an open mind about women in scouting, and at least an open attitude that this may or may not be an issue of values.

 

My Issue isn't with all of you.. Just with those who feel this is not an issue where a parent should have the right to pull a scout out.

 

I am not trying to change your opinion about women in scouting. Just don't try to change mine, and don't tell me I as a parent I don't have rights, to raise my child under my beliefs.

[Scoutfish]

 

 

 

You tell me!

 

All Isaid is that the mom's authority supercedes, overpowers and trumps that of the CO.

 

If you tell me I am wrong, then you are saying that if your CO suddenly instituted a policy against your own personal beliefs...then you will just follow along and not do anything?

 

Are you saying that you will follow along with something that goes against your own core values and beliefs out of respect to the CO's?

 

 

I doubt it!

[Scoutfish]

Double post for some reason!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[BrentAllen]

No, Scoutfish, what you said was:

 

But on top of that, the CO is saying "Women are useless and inferior!"

 

Any mom who did not have an issue with that policy would in fact be proving that policy true and correct by not speaking out about it.

 

This is not about BSA policy so much as SHOWING a CO that their policy is a load of crap and that as a parent (who's duty is to raise her son and give guidence as well as mentor as she see's fit until he's 18) she will not put up with or allow it!

*****************************************

 

Showing a CO their policy is a load of crap?? That the beliefs of the CO are a load of crap?? That is what you posted. Do you realize that the CO is a church, and the policies represent their beliefs?? If the mom doesn't like the policy, she should leave. End of story. No need to bash the CO.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[Scoutfish]

No, what I said was :

 

 

"This is not about BSA policy so much as SHOWING a CO that their policy is a load of crap and that as a parent (who's duty is to raise her son and give guidence as well as mentor as she see's fit until he's 18) she will not put up with or allow it!"

 

I did not ever say "I think the Co's policy is a load of crap!"

 

I said IF - IF a mom thinks that, she has absolute right to yank her son out as a parent, because a parent has the absolute final authority over ANYTHING to do with their kid.

 

Now had you been following the whole thread, you would have seen from the very start that I stood behind nwasness's parental rights over "boy deciseon" regarding the Co's policy towards women.

I never once took a stand against the CO myself.

 

Now somehow, you are avoiding my statement of( and you can quote this one too if you want):

 

"Yep! That is my belief. But I do not expect you to follow it. I do not hold it against you to follow them or even agree to them. I respect and stand up for your right to disagree with and not follow them! If you don't agree - I'm totally cool with it.

 

See, I have personal beliefs too. Why are mine any less worthy? Especially since my beliefs support eqaulity and not division between the sexes?"

 

Now, I do not have a clue what faith or denomination the Co originally mentioned is. If it was listed, I didn't pay attention. You brought up the Pentecostal Church, not me.

 

 

Now as for insulting and disrespect, guess what?

 

Again..YOU, not me, but YOU...threw out the first insult by saying:

 

" Scoutfish,

The ignorance shown in your post is astonishing." So I'm ignorrant because I do not follw "THAT" church's views?

 

Well,I hate to point it out, but your

ignorance is awesome! All I did was stand up for a mother's right to steer her son's moral direction and as a parent guide her sons attutude.

 

You somehow take this as a personal attck on a church.I didn't bring them up, you did.

 

Well sorry, If having a view other than the Pentecostal Church's view is an insult to them...they will just have to be insulted!

 

I can't help it if they MIGHT be so insecure as to think individual thought is an attack on them. But I won't aplogize either. The choice to be insuted is yours or theirs, but I did not choose to insult anybody...rather, I stood up for an individual who has been admonished for only wanting to do what we all know we have the RIGHT to do: Guide our children into adulthood.

 

If doing that is insulting to you...well...that's just tough!

 

 

Again, let me point out: This isn't about any one church or it's views.

 

It isn't about my personal beliefs or yours.

 

It is absolutely NOTHING - NOTHING AT ALL to do with BSA policy.

 

IT IS ABOUT: A parents authority trumping that of a CO when it comes to the morals and veiws instilled on a youth.

 

What is so hard to understand about that?

[Scoutfish]

 

 

EXACTLY! That's what she asked if she should do, but got lambasted by others saying it was her son's choice, not hers. Even though that son is HER son, and not yet a leagal adult.

Nobody eber said that she wanted, thought about, should or ought to bash the church.

 

I..meaning me... said if..IF.. not that she does...( get that?) IF she felt the Co's policy was a load of crap, then she was very well in her rights as the mom to have her soon join another troop.

[Scoutfish]

 

 

I totally and completely understand "that these are the beliefs of their church".

 

But that does not mean that those beliefs supercede or take presidence over mine.

 

Those beliefs do not outweigh or over-rule mine.

 

Or that mom's either.

[moosetracker]

It's late guys. I think you are saying things that after a good nights rest and some time to settle down, you will be wishing tommorrow morning you had not said.

 

Let's put this issue to bed and call it a night.

 

BadenP has called me an instigater... I am beginning to agree with him. Sorry, to put you two into a virtual fistfight.

[Scoutfish]

Nah, not a fist fight, just an arguement. Argueing is a good thing sometimes.

 

Your not an instigator either.

It's all good!

[Eagle92]

Sometimes things a comment will set folks off. It happens. The key to remember is that #1 We're all scouters here so we are all for the best interests of the youth, and #2 the "virtual campfire" that is the internet with folks typing on keyboards is not the same as seing someone at a real campfire where we can not only hear their words, but also hear the tone of voice, and see the mannersism and gestures used to understand how they are saying something and what exactly they mean. Sarcasm is one example wher the words say one thing, but the toneof voice and getures give you the real meaning..

[John-in-KC]

A Scout is Reverent.

 

There are churches in the US which take a strict reading of the New Testament. The church the OP comments about seems to be one of them. They have chartered one or more units but have given guidance on who will be permitted to serve as a Scouter.

 

There remain three questions the OP must ask herself:

- Does this Troop apply the aims and methods to its Scouting program such that her son and charge shall get value from membership?

- Do the temporal practices of Faith by this church conform with her understanding of Scripture?

- Does she beleve this church and its Scout troop is the right place for the growth and development of her son?

 

If one or more answers are NO, she has a moral and personal duty to part ways with this church and unit. Otherwise, let her son enjoy Scouting