How would scouting be different without the Eagle?

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

OGE,

 

Is there a subliminal message in your post? Your message isn't quite as clear as the other posts!

[nolesrule]

Not sure if you were kidding or not. If you were being serious, you might want to check the contrast on your monitor or get your eyes checked. :-)

[BadenP]

I think OGE's message is quite visible, clear and to the point, and I agree with him 100%.

[Thomas54]

 

Beavah,

 

Beautiful post. Wonderfully said.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

The one element I've seen no one discuss to this point is the ethic of community service we try to instill in our youth. A fair bit of that is first by working on others Eagle Projects, and then developing and executing their own projects. We, as Scouting, would lose a fair bit of that, perhaps forever. I believe it matters that we serve beyond our immediate needs. Without service beyond self, our society descends fast and furious into the "bread and circuses" mentality which was part of the fall of ancient Rome.

 

That's what I would see as a first order consequence of ending attaining the rank of Eagle Scout.

[CalicoPenn]

Regarding Eagle and community service, as I look back at my own youth, I come away believing that Eagle did nothing to instill a sense of community service in me. Doing the service project for Eagle (and the service projects for the other ranks) were just another hurdle to clear. When I was done with that, it was time to move on. Sure, there are exceptions - but look back at your units - how many Eagles continued on with their service projects - revisiting them to see how they were faring, taking the time to revitalize them if needed? A common comment I hear from non-profits that have sponsored Eagle projects is that they never hear from the Scout or the Troop about the project that was worked on again - and only hear from the Troop when they have another Scout that is looking for a place for a project. It's frustrating to go to somewhere where someone did an Eagle project, and put a nice placque up talking about the fact that this was an Eagle project, and see that the project has deteriorated.

 

I believe the OA does a much better job of instilling a sense of community service in Scouts - and it should since that's pretty much the reason for it's continuing existence.

 

I sometimes wonder if Scouting, and the Scouts, would be better served if the "leadership service project" required for Eagle was eliminated and replaced by a requirement for a long-term (minimum 6 months, with a minimum number of hours - 100? 150?) on-going volunteer/mentoring/internship type of program with communities and non-profits.

[Stosh]

I'm beginning to think it's not the Rank of Eagle which is the problem, but the perception, expectations and emphasis placed on it as something which it was never intended to be. It's not the holy grail of Scouts, it is just another rank, the last one which one can attain. Am I to be awe-inspired over the scout who is able to finish the program? I'm not all that impressed with Valedictorians and yet they stand at the highest point of their high school success ladder and remain an even smaller percentage than Eagle Scouts.

 

The hype of Eagle is more than the award has come to mean. All it means is that the boy has fulfilled a set of requirements by which he is measured both objectively and subjectively and had attained a rank in the scouting program. Okay is this any different than the world of education getting a diploma or advanced degree? Kindergarten (Tigers) and then al the way to PhD (Eagle). What percent of the population has a PhD? Oooh, aaah! Okay, how about the military? Buck private (Tenderfoot) and then all the way to General (Eagle), What percent of the population holds or has held the rank of General? Oooh, aaah!

 

I know I'm going to take flack for these comments, but when one looks at the situation without all the emotional hype and star-studded enamored stares, how is it any different?

 

And what about all the boys that just are in scouts and don't aspire to Eagle. Well, they enjoy the program and it's no big deal they don't reach the rank of Eagle. Yeah, right, and it's no big deal they don't get their high school diploma either.... How is the scout who drops out of scouts any different than the student who drops out of school?

 

What are the cultural dynamics that make these issues different from one another or are they basically all really just the same?

 

To me Scouting is a leadership development program whereas those who "graduate" have a solid understanding of what service, citizenship and leadership is all about. I understand that this is not for everyone. Not everyone has a PhD and not everyone is a General. So be it.

 

Calico - I don't think that X number of service hours is the same thing as identifying, organizing and leading others in service. That's the process that makes the Eagle project supposedly better. I think the boys ought to do 2-3 Eagle projects instead of 2-3 different service thingies.

 

The only "take-away" I can offer in this discussion is the unfortunate conclusion that we all face. If a person achieves a PhD it is expected that that person teaches and contributes even more to the world of education. If a person achieves the rank of General it is expected that that person lead the armies as needed in the fields of conflict. However, it seems to be the tradition that Eagles to just quit. Remnants of their accomplishments may be fleetingly evident in their family lives, their work lives, their contributions to their communities, but what percentage of Eagles wear the Eagle scouter knot on a shirt and promote Eagle to the next generation? How many organize community projects and inspire citizenship, community service and helping others in their arena of influence? Yeah, my point exactly!

 

Stosh

[emb021]

"I'm beginning to think it's not the Rank of Eagle which is the problem, but the perception, expectations and emphasis placed on it as something which it was never intended to be. It's not the holy grail of Scouts, it is just another rank, the last one which one can attain."

 

I have to agree.

 

And I think this is something that has happened more in recent years (ie, last 10-20 years or so). I don't recall this in my youth as a scout.

 

Some people get WAAAAYY too worked up about Eagle Scouts more so then other aspects of scouting, and I think it overshadows things. Heck, I get shocked when I say that we need to recognize OTHER high achievements in Scouting, like the Venturing Silver and Sea Scout Quartermaster, and I get verbally attacked because I have 'dared' to 'put down the rank of Eagle Scout', as if recognizing these award recipients lowers the importance of Eagle Scout.

 

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

"All it means is that the boy has fulfilled a set of requirements by which he is measured both objectively and subjectively and had attained a rank in the scouting program."

 

 

Why has Eagle lost some of it's prestige?

 

It has to be awarded to anyone who completes a check list of "do" items - the "objectively" side. The "be" side is where the "subjectively" used to be and where the biggest changes have been made in today's Scouting program. National advancement policy changes are taking away the ability to "measure subjectively". Look at the current definition of active - just being registered totally takes out the issue of being subjective in a Scout contributing to the overall program. Demonstrating Scout Spirit in their daily life was totally subjective on the part of the unit leader - no more, just matters what letters of recommendation say! What Scout would be dumb enough to ask someone for a letter of recommendation that wouldn't supply a favorable one?

 

With changes like these, more will get the award, but it will have lost it's value. If this trend continues, the award will have lost a certain amount of prestige and will not be recognized as a great achievement! Is this in the best interest of Scouting, I don't think so! Respect for those who have earned Eagle is on the decline. Is that something that we really want to see?

[acco40]

If Eagle is the goal, why on Earth would anyone complain if the Scout perceives himself to be "done" after he earns that rank?

 

On the other hand, if the goal is character building, citizenship and physical fitness - we are never done.

 

The problem is that selling the aims to a 10 or even 11 year old boy is tuff. So we hold teh carrot of Eagle, adventure and fun. Then we act surprised when a 16 year old who has earned Eagle and doesn't get a lot of adventure and fun hanging out with a "gang" comprised mostly of boys 2 to 3 years younger than him, and no members of the opposite sex mind you, seems disinterested in the program.

[Scoutfish]

Here's another way to possibly see how the rank of Eagle has been degraded and lost some of it's luster over time:

 

Some parents...not all mind you....See Eagle rank as the sum total and SOLE point of scouting.

 

"You will not be allowed to get your license if you do not get Eagle!"

 

"My son was a Boy Scout, but it was a waste since he didn't get his Eagle Rank."

 

"Now that you got your Eagle, time to think about getting out and getting a job."

 

"You better get your Eagle by 15 instead of the "Jones'" son who got his at 16."

 

 

So as I said, some...not all parents...have treeated Eagle as a check point or tick mark instead of what it means to actually earn your Eagle. And in the process, they have reduced it's worth...at least in the eyes of their kids and anybody else who might suscribe to the notion that Eagle is just another thing to check off on when building a resume.

 

 

But in a different light, If National suddenly did away with the Eagle rank, then in essence, Life Scout would be the new Eagle Scout, only the name would be different.

[qwazse]

Community service: the quality of Eagle projects surpasses that of other projects of similar aged youth. The communities in our area are hungry for youth to take leadership, in fact some local park boards have "wish lists" for prospective Eagles. Actually, they are there for anyone to take the lead on, but who does? Not adults who have to hold down multiple jobs to make ends meet. Not the ones that have time because they have to jet out to their vacation villas. Not non-scouts who could just as easily take on "mop-up" projects to earn the community service credits their high school may require.

 

There is something about a boy *leading* a project that draws out the best in us adults and gets us serving in ways we never thought we would.

 

[qwazse]

Community service: the quality of Eagle projects surpasses that of other projects of similar aged youth. The communities in our area are hungry for youth to take leadership, in fact some local park boards have "wish lists" for prospective Eagles. Actually, they are there for anyone to take the lead on, but who does? Not adults who have to hold down multiple jobs to make ends meet. Not the ones that have time because they have to jet out to their vacation villas. Not non-scouts who could just as easily take on "mop-up" projects to earn the community service credits their high school may require.

 

There is something about a boy *leading* a project that draws out the best in us adults and gets us serving in ways we never thought we would.

 

[Engineer61]

BadenP wrote...

 

"That was a real eye opener for me and I have heard many other corporate executives say something similar about scouting and the Eagle, so my question is what has changed, where did the BSA go wrong?"

 

Fundamentally, I don't think it is so much what BSA did wrong or right, but what they did not do.

 

BSA, for all intents and purposes is largely unchanged from the organization that was started in 1910. As a result, by today's societal standards, BSA is a openly discriminatory organization based upon creed and sexual orientation, and some would say race due to the affiliation that BSA has.

 

Consider for a moment what would be the difference in the United State, had no changes to Constitution been made since 1910.

 

There would be no Federal Income Tax (ok perhaps NOT a good example!)

 

We would not directly elect U.S. Senators

 

Women would not have the right to vote.

 

Presidents could sit for unlimited terms.

 

Washington DC would have no votes in the Electoral College

 

We would have poll taxes.

 

18 year old's could still fight for our country but not vote.

 

I omitted a few, but you get the idea.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>> I have seen hundreds of post on the subject of Eagle, but what if there wasn't such a rank. How would scouting be different? Would the BSA still exist? Would the program be better? What are your thoughts?>Fundamentally, I don't think it is so much what BSA did wrong or right, but what they did not do.