How would scouting be different without the Eagle?

[acco40]

In an (misguided?) attempt to maintain membership, the BSA has been sliding the age requirements for almost everything downward for the last few decades. This includes the addition of Tiger Cubs, later the full integration of Tiger Cubs into the Cub Scout program, the lowering of the age requirements for Boy Scouts, etc. What has not changed is the "age out" of Boy Scouts. So, we get our Eagles earlier (Eagle has no requirement for maturity).

 

My oldest son earned his Life rank at just over 12. If I really pushed, he could have earned Eagle at 13 or 14 but why? He earned it at 17 because he wanted to get at least four Eagle palms. I've seen some earn the rank of Eagle and drop out at 15, 16, etc. and others stay in and focus on OA, high adventure, etc. Depends on the Scout and the troops focus. If the troop focus is on advancement, why stay?

[nolesrule]

I'm one of those people that earned Eagle but also understands it's just another rank. I'm also one of those people that thinks that the requirements are the requirements and phrases like "only did the bare minimum" are pure BS.

 

Regardless of HR and hiring managers and the occasional felon, the rank of Eagle Scout still is the biggest positive PR buzz word that the BSA has in regards to public perception.

 

The Advancement method is one of the carrots the BSA uses to get boys involved and retain them. I know this is a purely hypothetical discussion, but I think that it would be a mistake to deprecate Eagle as it would result in negative publicity and have a long-term impact on both recruiting both youth and adults.

 

 

[Thomas54]

 

Acco would you then agree that the BSA membership has benefited from an easier Eagle program. The award is more attainable and can be completed at an earlier age, thus allowing the scout to collect more accomplishments before college. Like it or not that does seem to be the BSA Marketing plan.

 

If the ranks and Eagle are not replaced it becomes a youth camping club. Like the one at church, where participation is once or twice and then no more. Certainly there are exceptions but the YMCA and the United Methodist youth campout programs don't get the year round devotion that scouting does.

 

 

[Eagle92]

BP,

One of the challenges that you may be seeing with HR execs is that they came of age in the 1970s, back inthe days of the "urban scouting" fiasco.

 

Another challenge is the lowing of the age for Scouting as well as the removal of time requirements between the T-2-1 ranks. While a "mover and a shaker" could earn Eagle after 2 years of becoming a BS, he would have to hit the BOR dates on target exactly. Since the removal of the time requirements at that level, I've actually sat on three BORs for one scout in the same nite.

[mc99218]

Probably wouldn't make much difference except top product sales..

So few actually make Eagle rank once a plum for high achievers who would probably do just as well without the badge....

 

but research what BP hoped scouting would mean to us , adult leaders of the right sort...it was not about filling the attaboy basket but merely helping those less favored in lifes settings to geta long on par with their more wel-born brothers (see Standardization of Badges..BPs Outlooks 1921.

 

I may be presumptuous but I have read enough BP to surmise he would be mighty displeased with the misuse of the advancement method of scouting currently employed ...

 

(Say it isnt so,Smokey)

all scouting is local

campfire chatter

MCCET

PMTNPO

OWL

 

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

"The Advancement method is one of the carrots the BSA uses to get boys involved and retain them. I know this is a purely hypothetical discussion, but I think that it would be a mistake to deprecate Eagle as it would result in negative publicity and have a long-term impact on both recruiting both youth and adults."

 

That being the case, why does BSA (meaning National) find some logic,often misguided, to award the Eagle rank to all who appeal being turned down for same by their troop, district and council. This, in my mind, belittles (deprecates) the award and does result in negative publicity throughout the affected council, district and troop, thus having a long-term impact on recruiting or retaining adult leaders. Those who know a particular youth best are totally discounted in this process and leaders are left to ponder, "Why bother?"

 

Does anyone know of a Scout appealing to National who was actually turned for the Eagle award? I would find this interesting because I have never personally heard of one. I have heard of several that I was amazed that National awarded thus making it easier for me to understand how the award is possibly losing some significance in the business world.

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

Double post(This message has been edited by NE-IV-88-Beaver)

[nolesrule]

The argument you make about a (subjectively) wrongly awarded on appeal Eagle, while I'm not discounting it as being a relevant argument, is limited in scope to usually a single unit and it may or may not have an effect in other units, the district or council. Rarely does it have an impact on public perception of the BSA on even a local level, because most non-BSA people will never even know about it.

 

We know about these things on this forum because we participate in the discussions, but most scouts, scouters and the general public will never know about it.

 

On the flip side, discontinuing the Eagle Scout rank will get many times the press of the recent slew of Video Games belt loop articles, and due to the general public perception of "Eagle Scout" as a buzz word, the resulting PR would be widespread and would not be positive.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>On the flip side, discontinuing the Eagle Scout rank will get many times the press of the recent slew of Video Games belt loop articles, and due to the general public perception of "Eagle Scout" as a buzz word, the resulting PR would be widespread and would not be positive.

[nolesrule]

Yes, of course. I was just responding to a comment on my first post in this discussion.

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

"The principle consumers of the BSA program are parents."

Boy oh Boy! I hope that isn't true!

 

Have given this thread a little more thought!

 

I do think that it's a shame that at times when I try to explain the Quartermaster Award to the unwashed. I at times have to fall back and call it a Sea Scout Eagle!

 

While I'm not anti-advancement, I'll bet that I could provide a Scouting program without having to use the Advancement Method.

As it is (Or should I say was, when I was actively working with youth members!) I always seemed to be playing catch up with the Scouts.

Every now and then a Scout would corner me and ask if I'd update his book.

We would spend the next half hour or so going over what he'd done, when he'd done it and at times how often he'd done it.

Whatever we had done, we done because that was what we were doing. We very rarely did something because it was a requirement needed for advancement.

I suppose the argument could be made that if it wasn't important the Scout wouldn't be cornering me! But there are times when we have covered the requirements and the Scout hasn't known that we have.

 

When I talk with adults who have been Scouts they seem to want to dwell and talk about what they did as Scouts, places they went and activities they participated in.

My eye doctor is an Eagle Scout, but get him talking about Philmont and it's hard to get away from him.

 

As for: "The principle consumers of the BSA program are parents."

I'm happy that parents are willing to support and at times pay for the program.

But in my book the real consumers are the youth.

I think old Lord BP and all that stuff about a game with a purpose (If he ever did really say that?) Has it right.

Kids join Scouts to have fun, when they don't have fun or stop having fun they leave.

All th good stuff that we might be able to do or pass on is lost when the Scout leaves or stops attending.

If the truth be told, I don't think my on was a true member of his Troop for a couple of years.(This went hand in hand with him being able to drive at 16.)

Sure he was on the charter, he had a uniform with the Troop number on. But he tended to look in when he didn't have anything better to do.

When he did look in, there wasn't anything for him to do, so he hung out talking with others who had looked in or chatting with a few ASM's.

Then he left, not returning for several weeks until he looked in again. Sure he did complete his Eagle Scout Rank. But even with his project most of the people who worked with him were guys from the OA and pals from school.

Eagle Scout rank did keep him on the books.

But I'd hope there is more to all of this than just being a name on paper?

Ea.

 

[Thomas54]

 

 

Actually the discussion flow was leading not to doing away with the Eagle but to making more Eagles. It has become easier not harder.

 

BSA will soon assess that numbers can move in the right direction if the Eagle could be accomplished in a year and a half or better first year first Eagle.

 

Dateline: Near Future

Location: Texas

BSA announcement: A revamped express Eagle program has been developed. Its an accelerated program where the troop meets three times a week over a 12 month period. Standard time dependant service and participation requiremenst have been waived for the Fast Track Eagle.

 

Each month concentrates on a different aspect of scouting. One month its camping, the next month Citizenship and so forth. The accelerated program is taught by a professional scouting management team (moms & dads need not apply) The $2,900 program costs covers all labs fees and equips the scouts with all his basic needs, uniform, tent, sleeping bag, lantern and mess kit.

 

Ready made Eagle projects await. The highly organized approach to Eagle projects removes indetermination and youth reluctance fro the scouts mind. He just needs to show up. At the Six month mark the scout is assigned a fifty hour Eagle project to complete. Projects include a ready made park bench kit, a sidewalk clean up project and a aluminum can collection drive. A professional engineer, photographer and writing assistant are assigned to each scout.

 

 

Sincerely

BSA Fast Track Eagle Program

Leading the EDGE

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

I sure hope that they do not do away with any more of the time requirements. it's bad enough that just being onthe charter counts as time in rank. Wish it was more like Sea Scout advancement with %ages.

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm thinkin' that once upon a time, we used ranks and merit badges just as tools. Little games and tricks to help lads set goals and work harder than they ordinarily would for our recognition. Da key is "our recognition", eh? The boys want the men they respect to recognize 'em as fellow men.

 

Somewhere along da line in a lot of programs and people's minds, ranks and merit badges (and especially The Rank) became the goal. That doesn't work well. Our real goals are to build the lads like the one jblake talks about, eh? The man who doesn't do things for the bling, but because he cares... and keeps on doin' those things long after the bling is no longer an issue. In fact, an ideal Eagle Scout to my mind is often a lad who doesn't really care about "getting" Eagle Scout. He just cares about God, his nation, and his community enough to lead and sacrifice and work hard.

 

When we make advancement the goal, we spoil da real goal. Because if advancement is the goal, there are all kinds of ways to manipulate to try to get there. Like Merit Badge Events and T-2-1 in a year programs and active = registered and all that. Fulfill the requirements, not become a good man. Sorta like the difference between the goal being to work hard (thereby earning money) and the goal being to earn money. When the goal is just to earn money, working hard can easily fall by da way side. After all, we deserve high pay and free retirement health care and all that, right? Says so in the requirements.

 

I reckon we've already lost the fight on Eagle. Da thing has become a middle school award in a lot of people's minds, which means it really has no value for college admissions or employment. I hear a lot of folks who say "so what?" to Eagles on applications, and a few who treat it as a negative because their experience is that Eagles aren't go-getters. They expect to be spoon-fed, and have opportunities to advance set up for them. More telling, I meet a fair number of scouts who don't care about it because they feel it's a fake adult/little kid thing. Some of our best and brightest kids. Could be that da reason we see so many high schoolers drop out or drop away is related to that.

 

I tell 'em all it's like a high school diploma. Overall, it's a good thing, but there are good and bad high schools, and even some paper degrees out there. But I reckon it would be a lot nicer if da capstone award really resembled somethin' that was a major challenge to a high school aged young man ready to go off into the world. Somethin' that really reflected that we felt the fellow wearing it was a respected fellow adult.

 

Maybe we let Eagle be the 8th/9th grade award, and create somethin' new with real cachet as the new capstone for high schoolers.

 

Beavah

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Venturing Silver