Good Old Boys

[Eagledad]

I am saddened that the discussion took this turn. After reading the defense/attack of scouters who may or may not have earn awards they may or may not deserve from posters who may or may not have these awards, I finally understand the beep beep beep backup warnings of humble narcissists.

 

I look back on scouters whom I worked with that I knew were motivated more from the glitter of the Silver Beaver than the passion of character development and I wondered how our District or council would have been different. I can think of a couple who were the most enthusiastic presenters at Wood Badge, the loudest singers at Round table and the most energetic helpers at district events. Should we ask these more self serving folks to go home because we dont agree with their motivation? Im pretty good at reading people and Ive worked with hundreds of scouting volunteers and without meeting most of the folk on this forum personally, who can say that your hearts may not be on the boys? Does it really matter? Shouldnt we accept awards as thank yous without having to submit a two page resume to the forum list to justify what we proudly show on our uniform?

 

I think back on a Michele who was a Scouter that got into scouting about the same time I did in our district. Ive never seen an adult get so many awards and get on all the training staffs so quickly. It was very clear that our motivations for scouting were clearly different, but in the 15 years I worked with her, she started three successful Packs, and three successful troops. She was our districts first female Scoutmaster and she was terrible. But she didnt become the SM to change boys, she did it to get the troop started then hand the reins over to next scoutmaster for whom she was searching. She has been gone for five years, but the units she started are doing well. I have never met a person that could get training staffs more excited. And she treated everyone as if she were their best friend. It took 15 years for her to get the Silver Beaver, which it was a surprise for many of us that it took so long. Everyone knew that she was in it for the Silver Beaver, but no body minded because most of the work she did turned into gold. When I look back at what I contributed to scouting and the boys, I am satisfied that I truly gave my best. But when I compare my accomplishments on paper to Micheles, I am dwarfed and I am ashamed of anything I said against her (and I said a lot). I just wasnt looking at the big picture. I dispised her and those like her and I cringe when I look back on it because I now that the next time I meet her, I will still be treated as her best friend. She never cared about my motivation, she just enjoyed working with me and anyone else who loved this scouting stuff.

 

We all have our vision, some are more noble than others. If however we would look just a little beyond the other persons motivation and start measuring the ground being plowed, maybe we might not mind so much that their fire was fed by a different fuel than ours. Everyone is different and marches to a different beat, some folks like to show themselves off, others like to stand in the shadows. But when the day is done and we look at mountains we have climbed together, are we so different?

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[OneHour]

Barry,

 

If I ever get to meet you, I would like to shake your hand!

 

1Hour

[Stosh]

There are those who seek the recognition of others and for the most part I don't see this as a problem. If they want the Silver Beaver, great, go for it.

 

There are those who don't see the need for the recognition and if they never get the Silver Beaver, they'll never lose one moment of sleep over it.

 

Both can do well and be very successful in their efforts and as long as the boys reap the benefit, this is a good thing.

 

But there can be and sometimes are times when the position of recognition is used to determine a person's "status" in an organization. I don't know how to go about changing other peoples' feelings about why they might do this, so I don't even try.

 

As long as there are no negative repercussions in the process that will reflect on the boys or reduce their opportunities for successful development, I say more power to ya. On the other hand if it gets in the way, I just move on down the road and find a better view of the world.

 

I have so many hours in the day and I chose to devote them to the scouts and their program, not the adults and theirs.

 

Stosh

[BrentAllen]

"The reason I asked about how many knots Brent had I figured him for a three row kinda guy."

 

Well, you would be wrong - again.

 

I didn't start our Troop to earn a knot. I did it so my son would have the Scouting experience I wanted him to have.

 

I've done lots of things in Scouting, none of which were to earn a knot. I've nominated several people for Silver Beaver, and have been very happy to see them receive it. Unlike Beavah, I think it is great for them to be recognized by their peers for outstanding dedication and service to Scouts. Those Scouters are an inspiration to me.

 

Funny thing - I've never known anyone who received the Silver Beaver to suddenly take their toys and go home. If what Beavah says is true, we would never see those who are in it for their ego show up for anything after getting their award. Mission accomplished, they would just find something else to do with their time. Kinda like those Eagles who get the award and then disappear.

 

The Silver Beavers I know end up doing even more for the program after getting the award. They don't slow down, they pick up the pace. Too bad some have to question their motivation.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[acco40]

To get back to the DAOM, it is called "District" not because of district service but because it is awarded by the district. A district may award a certain number of awards based on how many units, how many were awarded the previous year, etc. (not hard rules mind you but fairly firm guidelines). It definitely can and has been awarded to those who have unit service only. However, it is rare to have unit service only sometimes by dedicated Scouters. Note the The nominees attitude toward and cooperation with the district and/or council is to be taken into consideration. guideline.

 

As for adult awards, lets look at this from a Scouts persepective. Just like he has rank, merit badge, special patches (Paul Bunyan, World Conservation, etc.) to earn - so do I as a Scoutmaster. I think I'm providing a "role model service" to be cognizant of these awards. Our council has a special numbered hiking medal award one may earn - both adult and youth - that requires backpacking, winter hike, canoeing and writing a paper on a certain historical figure. A group of us took the hike and all of the boys completed the requirements to earn the medal (7 of them) but only two of the three adults who took the hike. How hard was it for the adult to write the paper? A piece of cake compared to a 13 or 14 year old Scout. I didn't so much write the paper to earn the award/medal, but to show the boys that I have the same expectations for myself as I do for them. As they strive for Eagle, shouldn't I strive to earn the Scoutmaster Award of Merit, Scoutmaster's Key Award and Scout Leader's Training Award? I fully realize that by earning these awards and putting them on my "formal" Scout shirt some adults look upon it as mutually exclusive - he's really in it to get awards, not help the boys - but hey, let them think that. What I noticed is that sometimes the Scouts, more so the younger ones, would ask what they were for and I got a chance to explain to them that just like them, I could earn awards too. I also added that to get these awards many folks had to help me - like having the troop earn Quality Unit, have the boys use the patrol method, have the Scouts advance, etc. i.e. - I could not have done that without them!

[Eagledad]

>>To get back to the DAOM, it is called "District" not because of district service but because it is awarded by the district.

[Stosh]

>> "Mmmm, I believe most scouter awards are from the district.

 

>> Why do folks struggle with an award intended for work done at the district level?"

 

Unfortunately only the DAM award is awarded from the district, all the rest are council or nationally awarded. Thus the reason why the knot is the only knot with an overhand knot and all the rest are the full square knot.

 

And the reason folks struggle with it is because of the conflict between what people think it is and what the requirements state it is.

 

Like a lot of things, the perception is not the reality. What your district traditionally holds as to their interpretation may not be what is what the program intends. It is this way with a lot of what gets discussed on this forum.

 

Stosh

 

[OldGreyEagle]

When I started in Scouting I was proud to put three knots on my uniform. That was the Eagle, Religious Award as a youth and then the Arrow of Light. I figured I was set. Then after a few years of Roundtable attendance and some work helping out on the District Level the Troop Committee put me in for the Training Knot, a peer from another troop wrote me up for the Adult Religious Award of my faith and so I got another knot. After several years of working on the Council Level with the Venturing Program, the youth of my Crew got me the Council Venturing Leadership award. A few years back I recevied the District Award of Merit and then in 2009 the Silver Beaver.

 

I used to think anyone with more than 3 rows of knots was making like a third world general, now I think knots are more like a time in grade kind of thing, you hang around long enough, you get knots. I never sought out a knot, I received them because other's thought I should have them (well except for the youth earned knots of course).

 

When I wear those knots, I am honoring those who thought enough of me to put me in for the awards. I try to repay them by putting in others for the awards they deserve

[Eagledad]

>>Unfortunately only the DAM award is awarded from the district, all the rest are council or nationally awarded. Thus the reason why the knot is the only knot with an overhand knot and all the rest are the full square knot. >And the reason folks struggle with it is because of the conflict between what people think it is and what the requirements state it is.

[Beavah]

Just like he has rank, merit badge, special patches (Paul Bunyan, World Conservation, etc.) to earn - so do I as a Scoutmaster.

 

Yah, Adult Advancement. Thing is, Advancement is a method we use for children, eh? And for kids, generally it's a positive... except as we're discussing in da other thread the over-emphasis on Eagle may have become a negative.

 

For adults, it's always looked like a negative to me. Just take a look at this thread, eh? Causes a lot of contention and misunderstanding. Yeh get some fellows who really are into it for themselves. Yeh have some who wear their medals out of thanks for those that nominated 'em or out of nostalgia. Yeh get others who come from outside of scoutin' who really do look down at the overly festooned, and a few who seek out the festooned. Some claim they wear knots for the boys, but really it's just a way of pointing to themselves during boy-conversations, rather than focusing on the boy. Others might be able to pull off those conversations.

 

So da thing is a mess. It causes more contention than it's worth, and has at least as much downside as upside. Even before we get into cliques of folks nominating each other. Or how a lot of great scouters and those they hang with aren't "into" it and never nominate anyone, so that the awards don't really reflect all those with talent and experience. Besides, compared with da kid awards, most of da adult awards don't actually require us to demonstrate proficiency, eh?

 

Yah, I'm on one side of this, eh? Figure that adults should be internally motivated by helpin' kids and not need the external motivation. But I reckon that even those who are strong supporters of adult awards recognize the substantial contentiousness and downside of da current system from the (multiple) threads on the topic.

 

Why not just do away with it, and let real recognitions for outstanding adult volunteers be the more personalized things like I mentioned earlier? Other than the howling of those who are into such things for da wrong reason, I figure we'd do fine, and eliminate some of of the contention and separation between folks who should be workin' together on the kids' behalf.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Beavah,

Your posts wreak of "I got mine, now get rid of the program."

 

Maybe we should all just follow the Golden Rule.

 

Getting rid of the program is just more of the "no competition because kids' feelings will be hurt" nonsense that is ruining this country.

 

Unlike you, I have nominated several people for awards, and I enjoy seeing them receive them. It truly is better to give than receive. Try it sometime, and maybe you will have a new appreciation for the awards.

[Stosh]

>>Unfortunately only the DAM award is awarded from the district, all the rest are council or nationally awarded. Thus the reason why the knot is the only knot with an overhand knot and all the rest are the full square knot.

[sherminator505]

I've never considered myself one of the "good old boys." I'm one of those journeyman-types that seem to get lost in the mix. I wear two knots - Eagle and STA. I usually don't wear the service star. It has a "20" on it. I was never awarded the Vigil Honor, either. Still Brotherhood after all these years.

 

So what have I done with the time? I've grabbed two troops out of the pool by the collar. Only one still exists today, but I did manage to keep the other afloat long enough for two Eagles to finish before work obligations called me away. I also helped to train our District Chairman back when he was an ASM. Those are the biggies, but I'm sure there are countless little things that escape me just now...

 

Sure, there are some Scouters who seem to get noticed. This doesn't bother me much, save for the attitude that it sometimes breeds. I am perfectly content to get in, get the job done, and leave the self-congratulations to others. I get my reward from seeing a job well done and seeing Scouting advance.

[Beavah]

Your posts wreak of "I got mine, now get rid of the program."

 

Sorry if they come off that way. I thought I made it fairly clear that I didn't attend many of my awards ceremonies, don't wear all my knots, and really could care less about the things. My attitude is da same as sherminator's. You could kill adult advancement tomorrow and I'd turn in my knots, beads, medals and whatnot without a second thought. If I could find 'em. So in terms of da Golden Rule, I reckon I'm consistent.

 

Getting rid of the program is just more of the "no competition because kids' feelings will be hurt" nonsense that is ruining this country.

 

Yah, we're not talkin' about kids, eh? We're talkin' about adults. Is scouting service really all about adult competition? Really? That's very telling.

 

Unlike you, I have nominated several people for awards, and I enjoy seeing them receive them. It truly is better to give than receive. Try it sometime, and maybe you will have a new appreciation for the awards.

 

Like I said, I much prefer the personalized recognitions, offered by those who are closest to the scouter and mean the most to him/her. I encourage and set that up all the time. Gettin' a patch from a bunch of council or district folks they don't know that well or care about doesn't strike me as being enough of a reward for the measure of love and service a dedicated scouter provides.

 

Unless, I suppose, if they think that scouting for kids is all about adult competition.

 

Beavah

 

[Mr. Boyce]

It's interesting to see the different motivations. I'm in it to do cool things, and BSA awards seem to me something you give to the kids since it really can mean something to them. As an adult, I can't say I'm motivated by the patches.

 

I respect what oldgrayeagle says about honoring those who gave him the awards.