Committee Rights

[billandt]

Hi there

This is a great website for info...been reading for a while now.

 

Recently in our pack a leader has not been abiding by the scout law and not being a good example to the scouts. The committee voted and agreed this leader was breaking all types of scout rules and we wanted him removed. Our Council office said without the COR's approval our pack committee can not vote out a den leader. Is this true? I have read they approve a leader so does that mean our committee has no authority on making someone leave? The COR says he just doesn't want to get involved or look back for giving someone the boot. But keeping someone in that is not worthy of the uniform and bad for the kids concerns me.

 

Thanks for any input.

[WestCoastScouter]

I am certainly not the most experienced scouter, but I do believe that since the Unit "belongs" to the Chatering Organization, that they can select a CM, or allow a CM to continue....even if opposition to the Pack Committee. In fact the Chartering Organization Representative (COR) could come in and dismiss the pack committee.

 

So what are your options if the COR appears be apathetic to your situation?

 

(1) Contact the IH (Institutional Head) of the Chartering Organization. (The head pastor, the commander, or exaulted ruler, or grand poo ba, whatever his/her title is). Ask for a meeting, and explain why the committee feels the CM should be replaced.

 

(2) Ask for a sit down with your DE, or CE with the COR, to go over why the committee has made a "Vote of No Confidence" in the current CM.

 

ALSO: Have a replacement ready to take the reins. It might be easier if you present your proposed replacement for the current CM.

 

Option (3) Visit other local units and pay the $1.00 to transfer, or look into forming your own new unit... I have heard of some units where the chartering organization is the "Parents of Pack 123". Thus the parents themselves ARE the chartering organization.

[UCEagle72]

No ... the Pack Committee cannot remove a registered leader.

 

This is only the responsibility of the CoR. And actually the CoR also "approves" all leaders -- it is the job of the Committee to find new leaders, and the CoR makes the final approval.

 

And as WestCoast has said, speak with the Executive Officer (EO) of the Chartered Organization, and let them know of your concerns.

 

I have never known a CoR that would refuse to remove a leader - with the proper justification - but the EO is the appropriate person to speak to, if you have that justification.

[OldGreyEagle]

The Unit's Commitee's function is to support the program, Personnel issues are with the Chartering Organization

 

I know BSA Literature has lengthy (for them) tomes on how to select leadership and the unit committee is prominantly featured but do not mistake "recommendations" for hiring and firing authority

[evmori]

The COR has the final say. However, when it comes to recharter time, just don't recharter the person.

[billandt]

This is a den leader we are talking about to clarify, not the CM or AC. Well I will research into the recharter option. I have no idea who has to sign off on that. I have only had to pay the annual fee for my child/scout in the pack and for myself as a another leader. Doesn't the COR control who recharters as well? Seems like the ball is still in his court. He has no idea of what this leader has done. When i called to speak w him, within minutes he said he didnt want to hear the details. I am the CM, by the way. So to show respect, I didn't push him. The Committee Chair would like to email the COR and attach a typed up list of the issues with this leader and hope he will at least look at it. Whether the COR realizes it or not by not taking no action and "staying out of it" he is being involved and affecting the Pack. We have such a wonderful Pack...kids and parents. It is a shame it seems like there is always one person out there causing problems.

 

The input is great from this website.

 

Thx!

[Beavah]

Yah, billandt, everyone's been steering you right. The Chartered Organization is the one on the hook liability-wise for the behavior of a leader, so they (and only they) have hire/fire authority. But kudos to your committee and yourself for bringing an important issue to their attention.

 

Now, there are a few ways to proceed here, dependin' on what's what, so let me list out some options.

 

I think the proper way to go from what you describe is that you and the CC meet with the Den Leader and say "thank you for your service, but it is no longer required." Then yeh meet with the parents of the den and let them know you have appointed a new den leader. Yeh take the new Den Leader's application to the COR or IH for a signature (same as always). In other words, you don't need the BSA's permission to make a change, eh? The paperwork just notifies the BSA of a change that you have already made. The IH or COR signoff and the filing of the paperwork with the council look to me like they're formalities in this case. By the time an entire committee has voted to remove a fellow it's a done deal. So yeh just treat it that way. You take action, and then follow up with paperwork whenever you can. Nobody from the council office is goin' to come out to a den meeting and order you to obey the old den leader . If the fellow makes a scene, yeh just leave or call the cops, whatever is appropriate.

 

As far as finishing the paperwork goes... In some units, the COR doesn't really function as a COR, eh? He or she got filled in as a "warm body" because someone was needed in the position for the unit to charter in the first place. They don't really understand their role and how important it is. Now, some training would help, but that's a long-term solution and you need a short term one. Da short term one is to do what WestCoastScouter suggested, and have you and the CC go to the IH (Institutional Head/Executive Officer) of the Chartered Organization. He or she can act unilaterally to remove the person (AND to replace the COR, if need be).

 

Now, there's also a man or woman who is called a "Unit Commissioner" (or if you don't have one of those, a "District Commissioner"). They're council representatives assigned to your pack to help you navigate stuff like this. Now, not all packs have good ones, but you might ask who yours is or if you can talk to the District Commissioner. They can help you navigate this stuff and meet with the IH and whatnot. It's free!

 

There's yet another option, depending on da nature of the violations. If there's something serious that involves youth protection issues, yeh should notify the council Scout Executive (da CEO of the local council). Not the office workers, the boss. He would then work with the chartered organization to investigate and possibly remove the person from scouting.

 

Beavah

 

[JMHawkins]

Tough situation - it is the COR's job to either handle these sorts of issues or else deputize the CC (and the rest of the Committee) to handle them. Not wanting to get involved and not allowing anyone else to handle a bad situation isn't okay. Is there a committee member who has a good working relationship with the COR who could present this for you? The CC should be that person, but no guarantees. Is the COR just confrontation-averse? You said they don't want to look bad for giving somene the boot, they need to realize they can look bad for far worse reasons too. He didn't want to hear the details about the DL, maybe you (or the CC) can call him again and acknowledge that he doesn't want to hear details and that you won't read him the list. Instead of discussing the behavior, see if you can discuss the reaction parents will have if they discover the behavior, and how badly that will reflect on the pack and the CO.

 

But if he just doesn't want to do his job, then yes, get the EO and the District folks involved. But first, double-check with yourself that the behavior is bad enough to warrant potentially blowing up the pack.

 

[RememberSchiff]

How do his den parents feel about this? If they have no complaints then this situation gets murkier.

 

I take it this leader's son is also in the den.

 

[jhankins]

You probably don't have one, but a unit commissioner is a great way to get this kind of issue addressed. As a unit commissioner for a pack, troop and crew, I deal with the COR and the IH once a month to give them a snapshot of their units from a scouting QA perspective. When it came time to remove a leader in the past two months, I was able to advise the leaders on the policy, bridge the gap between council and the unit, and help the COR realize he needed to be more active in his leadership selection process so what happened wouldn't happen again.

 

If you do have one, be sure to contact them, they can help communicate the needs of your unit to the COR without the information coming directly from you.

[ScoutNut]

Is this the same Pack and COR that you had problems with a few months ago? The COR that refused to let your Bear den (of which you were the den leader) of 15 get split? Or, as you were talking of doing, did you start a brand new Pack, with a brand new COR, and take over the role of CM?

 

If this is your old Pack, and you have taken on the roll of CM along with DL, what happened with your den? Did you force the COR to allow a split? Perhaps, if that is what happened, the COR might feel burned by the incident. He might feel that his input is not wanted/needed by the Pack, and so has decided to take a very hands off approach.

 

If this is a brand new Pack you started mid-year, the COR might be untrained and not know his true roll in the Pack leadership. This is where a UC could help by talking to the COR.

 

Actually, a lot of what you do now (old or new Pack) depends on just exactly what the den leader did that is so horrible. If it is a Youth Protection abuse issue then there is no need for the entire Committee/Pack to be informed, or to vote on anything. The CC simply contacts your COR and Council SE, reports the problem, and that the DL is being taken off of the charter. The DL is then informed that his services are no longer required. If the BSA rules being "broken" were of the not filing a Tour Permit variety, have you talked to the DL about it? Is the DL trained? Training, and a good discussion with the CM and CC, can solve most of these type of problems. Unless the real problem is a personality issue between various adults in leadership positions. That kind of thing can get ugly fast, and bring down a Pack.

 

Since the COR does not want to hear anything about the issue, I can only assume it is NOT a youth abuse issue and more of a personality war. You, the CC, and your UC, need to decide to sit down with the COR, weather he wants to or not, for a frank discussion of the problems within the Pack.

 

 

 

 

[billandt]

Yes, I started a new pack back in November. It has been a lot of work but worth every moment. I started the pack with 9 scouts and we currently have 23 enrolled and have not even recruited in the schools yet. Words gets out and people tend to like leaders that follow the rules. On another note, I have a den leader that seems to buck authority and it is not just mine. Argues with CC at funtions in front of scouts, argues w me, has withheld pack property, you can count on this leader to be 20 min late to every funtion. This leader even threatned our DE to go to his boss when they did not agree on something. Our Council (verbally) told me that wanted this leader removed and was glad I was paying attention. This leader showed up 30 min late to a elementary school. DE just happened to drop by the school that day and was pretty upset to have a mad principal on his hands. Well that gives you the picture and yes is seems like our COR may not have experience in this regard. Our COR has not idea that this leader has withheld keys to the CO that the COR asked to be given to CM.

 

I think the DE, COR and CC need to sit down and plead with COR to at least give this some thought and consideration and then we will honor his opinion. But he needs an informed opinion.

 

 

[RememberSchiff]

The DL needs to be at this meeting with DE, CM, CC, COR to give his/her side. Do not be surprised if COR is a no show. Prior to meeting this DL should receive a list of legitimate complaints, who is complaining, and then ask for someone from Council and/or the COR to check into those complaints with den parents, etc. The complaints may or may not be legit and the conclusion may be just adults who cannot get along. If his den loves him/her and you and the CC do not, expect that whole den will transfer elsewhere...maybe to your old pack where you did not get along.

 

Good luck to all involved, particularly the scouts.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)

[NJCubScouter]

billandt says:

 

The Committee Chair would like to email the COR and attach a typed up list of the issues with this leader and hope he will at least look at it.

 

Yes, THAT'S the next step. In fact, that should have been done immediately after the committee took its "vote" (which is really just an advisory vote since it doesn't have the authority to dismiss a Den Leader). At the very latest, it should have been done immediately after the COR said he "didn't want to hear about it." Before you go having meetings (or trying to have meetings) with everybody or even get the IH/EO involved, I don't think you're done with the COR yet. Someone hearing unpleasant news and saying they don't want to hear about it is an instinctive reaction with some people, and I don't think it should be taken as the "final answer." As you say, he doesn't even know what the problems are, and the fact that that is mostly his fault (because he wouldn't listen) doesn't change the fact that he doesn't know. So, yes, the CC should put together an e-mail, and at the top of the e-mail he can say that the CC, CM and pack committee of Pack 123 recommend that Mr. X be removed as a den leader for the following reasons, and then have it "signed" by both the CC and CM (you.) And the CC needs to include not only what the problems are, but what steps have been taken to correct the problems, and what the DL's reaction was to those steps. (And if the CC finds that he has little or nothing to say about corrective measures, maybe you have a different kind of problem and need to go back a few steps.)

 

Assuming that this is done, and the COR still "doesn't want to hear about it" after having it all laid out in front of him, then you can get others (such as the IH/EO) involved, probably by forwarding him/her the same e-mail with a notation at the top that this was sent to the COR but was ignored.

 

I also wonder whether anyone has asked (not told) this person to resign. But that is the most that the CC/CM/committee can do on their own. You should not do what Beavah suggests (essentially, tell the DL he is dismissed) because you have no authority to do so. In fact, doing so at this point would be pretty strong grounds for the COR to remove you, and the IH/EO might back him up.

[CalicoPenn]

Tricky situation - you've started a new pack - you have a brand new chartered organization, with a brand new COR who doesn't want to be involved and doesn't want to be the bad guy. It sounds as if the chartered organization is willing to charter the pack but doesn't really want to do anything more that that. I think you really need to have a sit down with the COR and IH to measure the depth of their committment to the Pack. If they truly want to be a sponsor in name only, then you need to get them to agree that the committee deals with leadership issues as it sees fit. Otherwise, they need to either let you know you need to find a new sponsor because they don't want to deal with the headaches, or the COR needs to step up and accept the committees recommendation and let the Den Leader know his/her services are no longer required, knowing that the Pack leadership has the COR's back.

 

Or do as Beavah has said - have a meeting and let the Den Leader know their services are no longer required - done deal.

 

It does seem rather odd that the Council has said they want you to remove this leader but that you don't have the authority to do so.