miles/nights credit for non-scout outings

[Beavah]

It really isn't that hard Beavah, at a minimum Part A will suffice for a camping trip.

 

Yah, I reckon yeh need to read a bit more closely, SMT244.

 

This was a trip down the Grand Canyon to da Havasupai reservation at the bottom. That's a Part B (physician physical & signoff) required trip, eh? The nature of the trip is more strenuous and demanding than car campin', and the availability of medical help is limited, with evacuation times to definitive care far in excess of 30 minutes.

 

It's da sort of thing where a prudent trip leader really wants to have a med form and a physician physical from the adult participants in particular; HikerLou is right about that part.

 

In addition to the expense of da physicals, there may have been adults who didn't want to adhere to the height/weight chart limits (?).

 

But that doesn't mean that everyone going on the trip has to have those.

 

T2Eagle, where are yeh gettin' that notion? Absolutely everybody goin' on the trip is supposed to have a health/medical form. Da med form is supposed to be a "minimum standard" for providing medical information, and it applies to everyone, youth and adult. Quite frankly, it's the adults who are at greater risk, as anybody will tell yeh who has worked Philmont.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[perdidochas]

"I'm curious about the medical form part of this. My understanding is that "all BSA unit members" are required to have the medical forms, A&C yearly, B for something like you describe. But that doesn't mean that everyone going on the trip has to have those. If you're not a unit member, you're for instance a parent just going on this trip, you don't need to have the forms to qualify for a tour permit or for it to be a scouting trip.

 

Was it that some scouts didn't have the required forms, or that some of the adults going didn't want to complete the forms? "

 

Well, from the forms, it says that part B (the medical exam) is required whenever the event exceeds 72 hrs or the activity is strenuous or demanding, or whenever they will be farther than 30 minutes from emergency evacuation.

 

The trip was to Supai IN the GRAND CANYON. I would imagine that the time factor and the evacuation factor would be considerations, and require A, B, & C medical forms. I know if I were the OP, I would have nothing to do with that trip. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[Beavah]

I would have nothing to do with that trip. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

 

Yah, OK perdidochas, I was with yeh for most of this. I think it's prudent for a trip leader to have medical forms and signoffs for this sort of trip, eh?

 

But why does everybody seem like they can only make a point by invoking some lawsuit silliness? Da reason to have medical information on hand is so that we can provide appropriate support to youth and adults, and generally Be Prepared, eh? That's a good point. A fine point on its own. A point that I think we all can understand and appreciate.

 

Yeh don't need to make up BS about lawsuits. That just makes yeh look either dumb or dishonest.

 

Beavah

 

[SMT224]

Ok Beavah, I'll give you the full medical form, all parts filled out and signed by appropriate parties. I still maintain these forms should have been done and ready, especially for a camping trip like this one. If the Troop in question went to summer camp in 2009, the forms should have been done and ready for any camping trip fall of 2009 and a good part of early 2010.

 

Yea, sometimes medicals can take a while to get together, but my experience has shown that if a medical is required to be on a sports team, parents can get in to a doctor or clinic somewhere mighty quick. It all has to do with how important something is to the parents & the kid. If a medical is absolutely required for participation (like summer camp), people will get it done. In the case discussed in this post, it wasn't required so it wasn't done.

 

[HikerLou]

Wow! I must say I am very impressed with this site. I know I should have been responding to some of your questions, but I was just enjoying the read! Thank you all for your posts.

 

First off, the Scouts - or nearly all of them - had current medical forms. They needed these to be valid to go to summer camp. This was really more about the parents - my position was that ALL of the parents needed the form due to the type of trip and the relative inexperience of some of the parents (in fact, one of the parents did need to be helicoptered out due to an injury to his leg -- the fact that the helicopter was more of a taxi, and not a LifeFlight, is all that prevented this from being Charter-threatening event!)

 

As for the miles, we do so using Troopmaster as a way of tracking and recognizing participation. We post big charts at our courts of honor, and the boys can be quite comptetive about who has hiked the most miles or camped the most nights. We also award the seven league boot, etc., which is based upon miles hiked.

 

YIS,

 

-Lou

[Scoutfish]

My thing is this: If they are really strapped for cash, and can't afford the medical check up/ DR visit/ physical....tell them to eat peanut butter and water for a few days on that trip! (The trip that ain't free at all!)

 

I mean, how about some sort of way of letting the EMS or rescue squad know not to inject you with "X" medicine or at the very least...give them a "medical heads up" to any potential issues you may have.

 

As far as strapped for cash...the form is good all year.... while all that money they spent on the trip is gone once the weekend is over.

 

If you can't afford a 20 minute physical...you probably can't afford to go on the trip either. Or buy that beer!

 

Tell them rules are rules..not choiceds depnding on popular vote..(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Basementdweller]

All of the walgreens and CVS phamacys in our area have minute clinics that will do camp physicals for $35

[Beavah]

All of the walgreens and CVS phamacys in our area have minute clinics that will do camp physicals for $35

 

Yah, only on kids and not on adults, eh?

 

I think what HikerLou is talkin' about are the adult medicals and physicals.

 

My experience over da years is that adults are far more worried about other adults they know finding out about their medical condition(s), prescriptions, etc. Discovered more than a few over the years that lied outright (by commission or omission). Viagra and birth control are Rx medications listed on a health form, eh?

 

I think that's gettin' worse because of economics. Know lots of adults who will forego their physical in order to provide junior with sports or scouts or whatnot. I think it's also become worse since we started up da no-fat-people rule.

 

Yah, for sure, goin' on a trip like this da trip leader should know about the basic medical condition and health of the participants. I reckon it's just fine to take the hard line on medicals. I would in most cases. Problem is just that yeh have to be willing to accept the outcome HikerLou describes, eh? They'll just do it off da reservation. Folks don't need the BSA to go camping with kids, but we need folks who go camping with kids in order to have a BSA.

 

When we're talkin' about adults, we're not really as responsible for 'em, eh? If we know the folks well, there are probably ways of gettin' the information we need talkin' to 'em on the side and respectin' their privacy or financial circumstances. A half-way point that gets a trip leader enough information to be able to make a decision so that we're not dealing with a helicopter evac on an official scout trip, but not so line-in-the-sand strict that we're dealing with a helicopter evac on a non-scout trip.

 

What was missing here was a respectful, private conversation about why da parents were havin' a hard time complying with the medicals, and some gentle, friendly support or accommodation.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Stosh]

A physical can give indication that a person is capable to certain activities. What if a person can't pass such a physical? Not turning in a physical because one can't afford it and not turning one in because they can't pass it are two important issues that one needs to consider.

 

I wouldn't take a pass on this and then find out half-way through the trip that the diabetic and hypoglycemic person can't handle the menu choices.

 

To think the rules are only to protect the troop is a rather narrow perspective. As SM, I'm responsible for ALL the people on the trek, not just the boys, not just the registered adults, not just who I pick and choose to be responsible for, but ALL the people.

 

Stosh

[Mr Irish]

I agree with Beav, the Tour permit and health form process and GTSS represent the distilled wisdom of 100 years of Scouters telling one how to take kids on adventures. Why not avail yourself of them?

 

A case in point, my sons folk dance team is traveling to the Midwest Morris Ale in Colorado at the end of the month, about 500 miles away. Despite the fact that the team is also comprised of and led by youth, its about as different from Scouts as one can get. But one of the parent chaperones asked me if I had any forms and advice for him on what he needed to shepherd these adolescents to the Ale and back. I said, boy do I. and spent a few minutes filing the serial numbers off the forms our troop uses, and gave him the stuff a responsible adult should want to have when traveling with someone elses progeny: health history and insurance info, permission to travel with and get the kid treated, emergency contact info, in case one of the darlings sneaks into the single malt tasting (told you it was different from Scouts) etc.

 

We threw in the training on how to handle a Cougar attack for free. Luckily since theyre Morris dancers, all they gotta do to ward off Mountain Lions is start dancing. If six kids with bells on their shins waving hankies and sticks dont scare off the cat they can always resort to telling the accordion player to play louder.

 

Mr Irish

 

[IM_Kathy]

this summer I'm actually going to be going to summer camp with my son's troop, but normally I don't go. But every year I have still had my physical done and turned in my form.

 

why?

 

all our forms get filed and put properly in our trailer and we have it on all our trips. sure my kid knows most things about my health, but I doubt he'd remember the exact names of the medications I take... and definetely not while he's stress worried about me. So my file needs to be available just in case!

 

now with my medications they do often change either med or dose within the year... so I always keep a list in my wallet as well as my doctors names and numbers. All the leaders know this and so do all my friends and family.

 

you never know who will need this info, and that you will be able to speak to tell them!

 

as to the original question... I would say that you stick to your word on counting them or not - UNLESS you have accepted miles done with a family before.