miles/nights credit for non-scout outings

[HikerLou]

I am an ASM in Southern California. Recently, our Troop organized a trip to Supai in the Grand Canyon. During the planning stages, I pointed out that the scouts and adult participants needed to complete their medical forms. Because several of the parents whined about having to do so, THE SCOUTMASTER DECIDED NOT TO PULL A TOUR PERMIT, instead calling the trip a "family camp" (at this point, my sons and I dropped out of the trip). None of the normal Patrol preparations took place - it was truly a family trip with many younger siblings and non-hiking parents participating (via horseback).

 

On several occasions prior to the trip, I advised the parents and Scouts that this was a bad idea, but - should they go through with it - the Scouts would NOT be credited with nights or miles. The trip is now over and done with, and I am now taking a lot of flak because I have stood by my word not to credit nights or miles for this trip.

 

Putting the very serious GTSS issues aside (I am dealing with that through the Council), am I correct in taking this stance about nights/miles? Will the Scouts learn from this, or am I just punishing them for the stupidity of their parents?

 

I appreciate your thoughts.

 

YIS,

 

-Lou

[Stosh]

Proper protocol was not followed and a warning was issued, end of discussion. If one does not follow through with the warning this time, this type of activity will become the norm. It also may show some complicity in the issue if credit for activity if one changes at this point. Honesty and integrity are a difficult position to take at times, but I'd hold fast and take the slings and arrows on this one. (Been there, done that, and it's no fun)

 

I'm not thinking you are punishing the boys for the stupidity of the parents on this one, but you might be teaching the boys to stand with integrity regardless of who's taking stupid stances and cutting corners. If they learn that, it will be a major step in their leadership development. Sometimes one has to stand against some status quo and lead. Next time maybe the boys will insist that proper protocol be taken regardless of what the parents say.

 

As ASM, I don't know if you have a leg to stand on and may lose this battle if the SM decides differently. But at least make it known where you stand on the integrity issue before dying on that hill.

 

Stosh

[dg98adams]

IMO, let the SM decide the credit issue.

 

I am an ASM in the Troop I serve, and sometimes act as the sounding board for what counts and what doesn't for the SM.

 

With the outing being run as "Family Camping" and not a Scout outing (with the limited info you provided - tour permit or not)....you appear to have a valid point.

 

I personally would not "punish" the Scouts for the decisions made by adults..... If the Scout felt he deserved credit for nights/miles I would do whatever I could to extend it... within the bounds outlined in the requirement.

 

Take the 50 miler award for example:

 

** It does say "provisional groups" (that could be interpreted as "families") are eligible, BUT

it does appear to require a National or Local tour permit right n the description....nit-picky yes.....but clearly stated.

 

http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/50miler.asp

 

 

[Gunny2862]

It's the Scoutmasters Call, but I believe Stosh - (jblake47) has the right of it.

It's what I'd call but in this instance I'd have pulled a Tour Permit for the family camp...

[CalicoPenn]

The Scoutmaster has already proven that he doesn't have a spine (I know Beavah may disagree because I'm not considering that the Scoutmaster is a volunteer doing his/her best) by not standing up to the whining parents and informing them that either the proper forms are returned or their sons don't go on the trip. The Scoutmaster has now, in essence, turned a Boy Scout Troop into a Family Camping Club. Not pulling a tour permit? Had someone gotten hurt, I'm not sure using an "it wasn't a Troop outing" defense would hold up in front of a no nonsense judge with common sense.

 

What makes anyone think this Scoutmaster will have his ASM's back on this issue?

 

I do believe that you are on the right side of things in this case - but unless the SM is on your side, it's a losing battle for you. I'd talk to the SM and make sure he agrees with you - if he doesn't, I'd hand over the ASM patch and be done with doing any volunteer work with the Troop. I'm not suggesting you take your son out of the Troop - just your participation as anything but a parent.

 

BTW - welcome to the forums

[Beavah]

LOL. Nah, Calico, I agree with yeh on the Scoutmaster. He should have stood up to the whining parents. I don't agree with yeh on all da made up legal mumbo-jumbo about judges and such. In a lot of ways, da liability of the SM is less on a family camping trip, because there's no reason to believe he has a duty of care.

 

I have a dream that some day we can have conversations about scouting without makin' up legal nonsense. Yes, I have a dream!

 

HikerLou, it's goin' to be the SM's or individual Merit Badge Counselor's calls on whether something counts or doesn't count for advancement. There are lots of things that can be signed off outside of a formal scout trip, eh? Though I agree with yeh that it shouldn't count for patrol camping time, sadly, neither of us gets to make the final call.

 

Medical forms are one of those things most troops collect annually prior to camp. Is there some reason yours isn't? I think that's the procedural thing your unit should correct.

 

In the end, yeh can't stop a bunch of folks in your troop from goin' on a family trip together, so it's just not worth having the argument. They even invited you, so yeh can't claim they were being exclusionary or somesuch. You thought it should have been run as a scout trip, but if the SM didn't want to run it as a scout trip, you or he or any other family could offer it as a family event. Just da way of things in a free country.

 

Beavah

 

[CalicoPenn]

Beavah - I'm pretty sure I said I'm not sure of what a judge may or may not do. Now while I bow to your legal expertise that the argument might not pass muster, I have seen a number of judges in Cook, Lake, DuPage and Will counties in Illinois where it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine a conversation in the initial stages that might go like this:

 

Judge: This was a trip of a bunch of families just getting together?

 

Defendant: Yes

 

Judge: And it was originally planned as a Boy Scout Troop outing?

 

Defendant: Yes

 

Judge: And you changed it to a family outing because people didn't want to file the BSA medical forms?

 

Defendant: Yes

 

Judge: And all the families that went on the trip know each other from the Troop?

 

Defendant: Yes

 

Judge: Did you use any Boy Scout Troop equipment?

 

Defendant: Yes

 

Judge: Did you pay the Boy Scout Troop rent for the use of the equipment?

 

Defendant: Ummm, No

 

Judge: If you didn't have use of the equipment from the Troop, would the families have been able to go together?

 

Defendant: I don't know.

 

Judge: And you're seriously telling the court this wasn't a Boy Scout trip? It was a Boy Scout trip.

 

Now maybe that won't hold up in an appeals court, but it would wreak havoc at the circuit level.

[Basementdweller]

How sad!

 

50 miles is a big deal??? Someone needs to work on their program. Outdoor section could use some work.

 

My son and I do that on weekend hikes in a month. The Webelo son is pretty close to crossing the 1000 mile mark. He has worn out, not out grown 3 sets of hiking boots.

 

We are going to backpack the Shenandoah national park in June over about a 10 day period, roughly of course. that is about 100 miles.

[evmori]

This has nothing to do with legalese! This is all about making a decision. The ASM made the decision not to count this for the Scouts and is sticking to his decision. Kudos to the ASM. One can only hope the SM will have his back.

[SMT224]

OMG! Doing a Tour Permit is not that hard! 10 to 15 minutes at most. And medical forms should be current and up-to-date at all times! My goodness! These parents and leaders need to get it together. This is a clear case of outright laziness!

 

Kids are punished on a regular basis by parental decisions, why should this be any different? If it was not a Scout trip then it was not a Scout trip - nothing done by the boys (not Scouts) should count.

 

If you go ahead and count and credit activities as if it were a Scout trip, then why should anyone do anything different next time? They will just say, "hey, I don't feel like doing a Tour Permit or medicals, and since it doesn't matter anyway, why should I?"

 

The SM and parents need to realize there is a reason for doing a Tour Permit and medicals - it makes the activity a Scout activity, and sets the tone for what is done and how things are done. Most importantly, that the Scouts Law is the guide for everything on that trip or activity.

 

If the camping trip you discuss in your post became a "family camping trip", what changed from it being a "Scout camping trip"? Most likely there was no Patrol menu planning, food buying, cooking or dinning, and likely moms or dads did most of the meal planning, purchasing, and cooking. Further, I bet more than a few beers were cracked open around the fire in the evenings (maybe this is the real reason they didn't want it to be a Scout trip!).

 

So they went family camping and hiked around. Big deal. So what. It wasn't a Scout camping trip and no one should get any credit. Case closed.

[Jeffrey H]

Lou,

 

I agree with your position. This is not a scouting event, just a bunch of friends getting together, therefore no credit should be given for nights to the scouts. I have nothing against an occassional "family" campout because it's a great way to grow closer as a Scouting family, but even those events should include a Tour Permit and the scouts should still follow regular camping protocol (i.e., patrol method).

 

 

 

[Beavah]

And medical forms should be current and up-to-date at all times! My goodness! These parents and leaders need to get it together. This is a clear case of outright laziness!

 

Yah, I think we should be a bit more circumspect, eh?

 

These days, we have lots of kids and families in our programs who are stretched thin, and quite a few without medical insurance.

 

The money for an annual physical for a healthy boy or adult when yeh aren't insured and are otherwise "stretched" might make the difference between whether the boy can go to camp or not. And in some areas, scheduling that kind of annual exam can be a 3-month delay.

 

So before we start calling these families "lazy", I reckon we should take a closer look, and give 'em the benefit of the doubt.

 

Beavah

 

[SMT224]

It really isn't that hard Beavah, at a minimum Part A will suffice for a camping trip.

 

[EagleBeaver]

For T-2-1 advancement requirements, the overnight activities need to be troop/patrol activities. Same for the Camping merit badge's 20 nights.

But the Backpacking merit badge and individual National Camping Award are two examples that don't have the stipulation of "troop/patrol" activities.

So, it seems to me that it depends on what sort of 'credit' HikerLou is talking about.

 

I'm not sure what 'miles' HikerLou's refering to unless it's for the 50-miler or Hiking merit badge. Hiking m.b. doesn't require troop/patrol hikes, but does require written plans and follow-up reports, so that's probably easy to not count in this case.

 

Scout On

[T2Eagle]

I'm curious about the medical form part of this. My understanding is that "all BSA unit members" are required to have the medical forms, A&C yearly, B for something like you describe. But that doesn't mean that everyone going on the trip has to have those. If you're not a unit member, you're for instance a parent just going on this trip, you don't need to have the forms to qualify for a tour permit or for it to be a scouting trip.

 

Was it that some scouts didn't have the required forms, or that some of the adults going didn't want to complete the forms?