Scout Priorities and Responsibilities (Vent)

[JMHawkins]

Perhaps were split on this issue, but I dont think school work should overwhelm a kids life to the extent it precludes extra-curricular activities, and if it does, parents should be proactive about it. Since Engineer didnt mention any other activities (band, baseball, etc.) I assume the campout was the only activity outside of the classroom that contributed to the assignment being late. Keeping an eye on what lessons our kids are learning and how Scouting fits, what went on here? I see two possibilities.

 

First, maybe the teacher made a perfectly reasonable assignment and the student, through poor time management, didnt get it done. Middle school is probably the first time that kids start to really hit time management challenges, so this could easily be the case. Proper time management for a reasonable homework assignment should have left enough time for the campout. Perhaps thats what he needs to work on, since its a very critical skill learning good time management skills now will pay huge dividends for the rest of his life, including the rest of his academic career. High School was pathetically easy for me (straight As without effort) and I didnt develop good time management skills until I was in college. There it was a serious struggle, I nearly flunked out my first year. I figured it out and did okay, but I wish Id learned those skills sooner. Rather than just enforcing absolute priorities, should you coach him in how to be more efficient so that he has time for scouting? While there are consequences in life for not getting the top priority done, there are usually also consequences for not getting priorities 2 and 3 done as well. The Power Company doesnt care that rent was priority 1, they still expect you to pay their bill too. If the carrot of going on a camping trip helps motivate him to focus on completing his schoolwork in a timely manner, hell be learning more than just whats on the teachers lesson plan.

 

The other option of course is that the assignment was not reasonable. This too could easily be the case, since there is a nationwide epidemic of teachers with their own time-management problems assigning unreasonable amounts of homework to make up for what they dont fit into class. The story as initially related here was an assignment given on Friday due on Tuesday that couldnt be finished without working the weekend on it, and this was described as typical for the class. If any manager (interestingly, Im in engineering too) working for me made a habit of loading his team up with weekend work, he would either improve his own organizational skills so that he wasnt abusing his team, or he would find another job. Ive always made this clear to people working for me emergencies and poor planning are usually the only legitimate reasons for extra work, and an abundance of either is not a good reflection on the guy in charge. If this is the case, the kid could benefit from better examples of leadership, hopefully coming from his scouting experiences. Remember, our kids arent just learning Readin, writin, and rithmatic in school, theyre also learning about social organization. If your school district is dysfunction and your scout troop isnt, the troop is a valuable part of the kids education too.

 

In either case, I really hope Engineer all of us - will look for ways to help our kids carve out time for things they enjoy. Consider this: if a kid really likes scouting, and school becomes the thing that keeps him from going scouting, he will sour on school. If that happens, it puts all the good grades hes ever gotten at risk.

 

[Engineer61]

"Gettin' good grades is advancing yourself. There's nothing wrong with it, eh? It should be encouraged. Just not as a "highest priority." "

 

"I'm with Beavah here. Now, there may be more to this particular story, but frankly Beavah's right about the general idea. Putting your academic advancement above all other obligations is selfish."

 

Huh? Really?

 

So you're saying that it's perfecting fine to raise the next village idiot, as long as he went Scouting?!?!?

 

Talk about irresponsible priorities!

[zippyboro]

Clearly, there is never going to be a consensus here on this situation. Most of us feel that there should be a balance between academics and extra-curricular, but there are a surprising number of people that see scouting as a priority, and should take precedence over school. That's certainly not the way our troop is run and if it were, it would be a very small group. The need to dissect the assignment and the timeframe, whether or not it was reasonable is not the point. He got an assignment that was going to require him to work over the weekend... big deal. You really think that merits complaining to the principal and the teacher??!! Unless there is a pattern of the teacher repeatedly handing out extensive assignments, I don't think you have a case... it was described as an advanced language arts class anyway. More should be expected of the students.

 

Sometimes the best laid plans go awry and you just have to accept it and deal with it. Sometimes that means you can't always do everything you want. As for those who have stated that the commitment to the troop comes first, the question is, did he go on the camp out because of a sense of obligation to the troop or because he wanted to go and have fun? My money is on the latter.

[JMHawkins]

"Huh? Really?

 

So you're saying that it's perfecting fine to raise the next village idiot, as long as he went Scouting?!?!? "

 

Engineer, I don't think you're seeing past the "School is priority one" bit. Would it be acceptible for your son to get an A by cheating? Of course not. Not the same thing, you say. Okay, different question: If his classmate was struggling with the class and your son had agreed to help, then the Friday assignment landed, would you want your son to still take the time to help, or say "sorry, you're on your own bub. I gotta focus on my own grade first"?

 

 

[nolesrule]

Choosing scouting vs. school is not really what this is about. It's unnecessary interference with previous commitments.

 

What this is about is that a teacher assigns something on Friday afternoon that cannot reasonably be done in the normal time allotted for homework over the weekend and assumes that the student can make up that difference because it is the weekend.

 

School is not on-call. There shouldn't be last minute time-consuming surprises during your downtime.

 

It doesn't matter what the student is doing. Could be a camping trip with scouts, could be traveling halfway across the country to go to your cousin's wedding. What the teacher is essentially saying is "Mom and Dad and little Johnny, I don't care what you had planned for the weekend. Little Johnny can't do it because I sprung this assignment on him last second. That means the two of you and little Johnny will have to cancel all your plans so he can get it done on time."

 

That's just not a reasonable request.

 

There were two ways this could have gone differently.

 

1) The teacher could have assigned the work earlier so that it could have been completed by the deadline regardless of weekend plans. This would have been fair for all students as well.

 

2) The student could have informed the teacher it would be impossible to complete on time due to previous commitments and request a change in the deadline. But who knows how the teacher would have handled that?(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[Scoutfish]

I agree with nolesrule.

 

Thing is, as long ago as it was that I was in school - way, way back when - for some reason, each teacher seemed to think they were the only teacher to assign homework. They just could not comprehend that another teacher might do the same thing.

 

Now, education is important, bo so is having free time, fun time and time just to unwind and collect your thoughts. How you collect them is an unique as the individual: fishing, gardening, painting, hiking, rock climbing , or even scouting.

 

Engineer, Trust me, i know the importance of school and planning your future, but there is also a mental side as well as an educational side to the brain.

 

To maybe put some humor in it: All work and no play makes you a psychotic who stalks his family in a hotel!

 

Point is, people need some stress reliefe.

 

The teacher screwed up by waiting until the weekend to assign a workload that seems to excede the work period.

 

Good thing all his other teachers didn't assign something too: Then some assignments would have ben dropped even if the campout was skipped.

 

My personal take - whicj has no bearing in this case - school work should be done at school. Home stuff should be done at home. Ask that teacher if they want to sit in class all weekend, every weekend , all year with the students. Then why send students home with class work?

[zippyboro]

"Engineer, I don't think you're seeing past the "School is priority one" bit. Would it be acceptible for your son to get an A by cheating? Of course not. Not the same thing, you say. Okay, different question: If his classmate was struggling with the class and your son had agreed to help, then the Friday assignment landed, would you want your son to still take the time to help, or say "sorry, you're on your own bub. I gotta focus on my own grade first"? "

 

^^Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any more absurd... what does cheating and or choosing whether or not to help a friend have to do with this situation? Are you trying to say that by going on the camp out he'll learn to never cheat or if he chooses to finish the assignment and miss the camp out, he will become a completely self absorbed ass consumed by greed ambition and avarice? Now who's being cut and dried? If only everything was that black and white...

[Lisabob]

"My personal take - whicj has no bearing in this case - school work should be done at school. Home stuff should be done at home."

 

Maybe in elementary school. Middle school, high school, college? No wonder we fall behind the rest of the world at these levels in key subjects like math and science. You don't learn without practice. That's where homework comes in. Homework, as the name suggests, needs to be done at *home.* The "rule of thumb" for college courses is that students should do an hour of work (or, gasp, more) on their own, for every hour they spend in class. Realistically, few are prepared for this as college freshmen - which I now understand better for having read this thread. We are not helping prepare youth for independent learning or independent responsibility by coddling them and telling them that all their work should be done at school. Set the bar a little higher!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nolesrule]

I don't have a problem with homework. It's necessary. I also don't have a problem with major assignments that are to be done at home (or library).

 

What I have a problem with is a surprise major assignment (meaning it requires significantly more time than usual homework) given on a Friday where the teacher sets a short term due date and assumes you have enough time during the weekend to get it done.

[Beavah]

The "rule of thumb" for college courses is that students should do an hour of work (or, gasp, more) on their own, for every hour they spend in class.

 

Yah, hmmm....

 

Dat's college, eh? A full load would involve about 12-16 hours of class a week, so doin' a couple of hours of homework per class still doesn't get yeh up to a full 40 hour work week. Plenty of time to be engaged in co-curricular and extracurricular activities.

 

But now let's take a typical high school lad, who has to get up at 6am or so in order to make the bus to get to school which starts at 7:30. Class runs until 2:30 at least, followed by sports/band/etc. until at least 5:30. At an hour of work per class plus a half an hour for dinner the lad would be up until midnight, leaving 6 hours of sleep before da whole thing starts all over again.

 

If they were adults, they'd form a union and file a labor suit that would obliterate the school.

 

Springing a Friday assignment on a 13 year old that's impossible to complete without sacrificing da weekend is unreasonable to any rational human being familiar with sound educational practice.

 

None of that matters to da core issue, though... do you keep your word to those to whom you have made a prior commitment, even at personal expense? Or is it OK to blow off a prior commitment to others whenever you feel something better (oops, I mean something yeh feel is a "higher priority") comes along?

 

Has our go-go-go, have-to-get-ahead lifestyle reached the point where honoring our commitments to others is no longer a priority?

 

If so, shame on us. Both scouting and da schools have failed in a fundamental way.

 

Yeh may think that somehow da lad's middle school education will earn him a job. It's quite a stretch, since I reckon a lot of folks would develop a real dislike of school and opt out as quick as was reasonable. But I'll tell yeh straight up just as a few others here have, if a fellow came to me with that my-advancement-first attitude, I would never hire him no matter what his education was. Da point is to hire good people, eh? That's the high priority. So like as not, what we're teachin' will cost kids jobs, and cost society.

 

Honor matters. Or is it Character Counts? Somethin' like that.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[JMHawkins]

"So you're saying that it's perfecting fine to raise the next village idiot, as long as he went Scouting?!?!? "

 

I could respond that you're saying it's okay to raise the next Bernie Madoff, as long as he got his homework turned in on time.

 

Of course that's not what either of us are saying, but we're just not on the same wavelength with this conversation. You're probably a bit surprised there's any disagreement with your homework-first position. I hope you will take the time to understand the disagreement rather than caricature it. It's ultimately your decision, you are the one responsible for raising your son, and you have to make the call here. But you asked for feedback, so you're getting it.

 

Our duty to our sons is not to raise them to be good students, it's to raise them to be good men.

[Engineer61]

So, I guess I'm not a man since I was not a Scout?

 

An interesting concept.

 

Thanks for the character assassination.

 

 

 

[nolesrule]

"So, I guess I'm not a man since I was not a Scout? "

 

Inverse error.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[Horizon]

Engineer61: I think you are catching (or perceiving) some heat from those of us who consider the US homework assignment load in some districts to be counter to what we want to put our youth through. I will note, however, that you tossed out the "village idiot" comment well before the "be a man" aside was made.

 

Your Scout sounds like a typical middle school boy with a lot to do, and who is still learning how to balance it all. My Scout is on a club sports team, A Scout Troop, A Jambo Troop, A Sea Scout Ship and a Venture Crew. He fights to maintain an A/B average, and regularly has to review his homework load. He has been known to take his books on campouts to catch up. He also will pull late-nighters to be able to keep up with the school load.

 

The level of homework in the US is not the cause of our relative decline in science and math against some nations. Those comparisons are full of problems, when the US encourages all to strive for a University level education, while other nations push students into tracks by middle school. When you compare our top 10% vs. others top 10%, we do not look nearly as bad.

 

The value of homework is regularly debated in academic circles, and a short summary of the research is here: http://www.jstor.org/pss/999298

 

Finally, having sat on University and Graduate level admissions committees - I will tell you that we look closely at extra curricular activities. A student with none goes into one pile, while a student who has led and achieved in addition to a satisfactory academic record has a much better chance at admission. Eagle plus Senior Patrol Leader, for example, counts towards admissions more than just being in a Scout Troop.

[Gunny2862]

First, I am not a PE.

Second, Some of us who work in Engineering have a hard time with things that are not cut-and-dried, fixed, with rules that change and have "wiggle room" or especially "undefined wiggle room".

 

That said, we need to get off of the spouting lines back at each other bandwagon and actually listen to what is being meant by those who are choosing sides in this discussion.

 

IMHO, the sweet spot on this lies somewhere in the middle. I don't think Lisabob nor Engineer61 want middle schoolers to be doing homework until eleven in the evening five nights a week. Nor, do I think various others believe that Schoolwork is unimportant - I was lecturing my H.S. Freshman on this topic this a.m. in fact.

But there does need to be some balance here, I get the idea that the College Student and maybe the H.S. Senior need to have the idea that there will necessarily be around an hour of homework per hour of class to prep for their next class - but at that ratio the H.S. Senior will actually be doing more work than the college student.

 

And most College Faculty will recognize that a Student who has over-scheduled and has no time to relax - is NOT an effective student. So shouldn't WE recognize also that over-scheduled youth are also going to perform less well than they could otherwise?