Scout Priorities and Responsibilities (Vent)

[nolesrule]

School is important. So are commitments. They only conflict when things like this occur.

 

You make a commitment to a minimum of 6-8 people that you will participate in an event (in this case a week ahead of time). But only a few hours before you are about to leave, you are given an assignment that is expected to be done during the same timeframe as this previous commitment.

 

So the dilemma is, which takes priority?

 

Is it your duty to self (education)? Is it your duty to others?

 

It's a difficult decision. Certainly, there are some no-brainers when it comes to choosing one over the other. But it's not always black and white.

 

I can tell you what my decision would have been back in school. It would have been to go to the scouting event, and it wouldn't have been based on a decision between duty to self or duty to others. It would have been a big "screw you" to the teacher who dared assume that my time outside of school completely belonged to him or her. On weekends, I always left Sunday afternoons open to complete all my homework. Last minute major homework assignments that would cause me to cancel pre-existing plans were just not acceptable to me.

 

Not only did I have my scouting weekends, but I was also an officer in my synagogue youth group, and attended those activities, as well as weekend conventions for those (and even was chair some activities).

[Jeffrey H]

We have a big mantra in our Troop. "Your schoolwork and grades come first, Scouting second".

 

Our troop leaders cut alot of slack when homework and schoolwork come into the picture. Yes, scouts have a responsibility to their patrol and troop, but we make the needed adjustments if a Scout has to stay home to finish an assignment. We encourage them to let us know as early as possible.

 

[Beavah]

Beavah... there is honor in a students commitment to do their best in school as well.

 

Yah, zippy, this to my mind is a good example of how we twist things. Yeh make commitments to people. I gave my word to myself to do my best in school and therefore I don't have to keep my word as a leader of others doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Doin' your best in school is a fine personal goal, but it's not a commitment. Other people aren't relyin' on you.

 

Your implication that by putting schoolwork ahead of scouting is in some way encouraging him to go down a path of greed and ambition is a bit far fetched.

 

Oh, I dunno. What folks do in small things often carries over to big things, eh? That's why we do Scouting. We figure by teaching boys to be responsible and ethical in small things they'll eventually be responsible and ethical in bigger things. Reverse is also true. The attitude that you can break your commitments and obligations to others whenever it's necessary to advance yourself is not what we want to teach. Even in small things.

 

Gettin' good grades is advancing yourself. There's nothing wrong with it, eh? It should be encouraged. Just not as a "highest priority." When yeh start thinkin' that advancing yourself is the highest priority, you're in da same camp as the dad who spends too long at work and not quite enough time with his family. Ultimately, you're in the same camp as those fellows from Goldman Sachs we heard from this week. It's just fine to break your commitments to clients if you're advancing yourself.

 

Your dad wants yeh to get good grades. Yeh want to earn good money. Your boss wants yeh to earn big profits. Nuthin' wrong with those things, they're good to strive for. But what yeh do in achieving those goals matters.

 

You feel that he was right to keep his commitment, but was he also right to hide the reality of his work situation to his dad? Dishonesty is not a part of the scout oath.

 

Yah, except we're supposed to be mentally awake, eh? Nothing in anything Engineer61 posted suggested any form of dishonesty. That was Lisabob's speculation. Gotta get your testimony straight .

 

I doubt that Engineer61 demands daily reports of his boy's homework. He strikes me as a good dad, not one of those hyper-hovering-helicopter types.

 

What he's upset about is the lad being late with an assignment and droppin' his GPA, and I think we all agree he's right to be upset about that. And he's a great dad because he came here to vent rather than venting on his kid.

 

So we're doin' what good friends do and lettin' him vent and then remindin' him he's got a great kid, that middle school grades are nothing to blow a gasket over, that other things are important, too.

 

I expect a few time management tricks from a supportive older scout or father are all the lad needs to have his cake and eat it too, and they'll serve him well in high school.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[sailingpj]

I have one question here, you said that the assignment being late dropped his grade one letter grade. Now was that one grade for the assignment, or was it his entire grade for the class?

 

I know plenty of teachers that drop the grade you get on an assignment by one letter for every day it is late, I think that that is reasonable. However if the teacher assigned an assignment that made up such a large portion of the cumulative grade for the class and only gave three days to work on it then you should be able to lodge a complaint with the school. I have had some hard teachers, but none that would give an assignment that counts for so large a percent of the grade that turning it in one day late drops you entire class grade by a letter, that is just unreasonable.

 

Couple other questions, what subject was it? What kind of an assignment was it? If it was a research paper of some sort then it could be he just underestimated how long it would take to complete. I have done that before. You do some quick research and think "oh, there's plenty of information out there. This won't take very long." only to later find that most of the sources are not very credible.

 

Like Beavah said, It's middle school, you are allowed to make mistakes in middle school. This is not going to stop him from going to college, it won't affect what job he can get later. He will most likely learn from this and next time plan a little better.

 

Like Beavah said, you have to honor your commitments, all of them. One of my old officers always said that you honor whichever commitment you made first first. Then you work everything else in after that.

 

We are dealing with stuff like this in my ship right now. We have a couple people who keep calling 2 or 3 hours before a meeting and telling us that they can't come because they have homework. We are a small ship, two people not coming cancels the meeting. When I get a lot of homework that suddenly comes up I go to the meeting, then stay up an extra hour and do my homework, but I go to the meeting because I made that commitment.

[TWOMORROWS]

"Posted by Engineer61

"Yeh know, I'm not sure priorities are always that cut-and-dried, eh? " Yes...they are! Priorities are absolutely cut and dried.

 

Yes...I have canceled vacations over long weekends because of school commitments...and work commitments.

 

That's why I don't bother to make those kinds of plans anymore. I've even sent the rest of the family on the fun outing and stayed to make my work commitments.

 

Fun is a want....not a need.

 

Scouting is a want...not a need. Yes...it was a big hit on his grade for the quarter...one letter grade...I am more concerned about the precedent that it sets, however. Only 4 weeks to try to make up the damage."

 

 

Thank you Jesus that you are not my parent.

Fun is a NEED!

Fun is as important if not more important that school work. There definitely needs to be a balance which does not appear here. You can never get your fun back! "All work not play make for a very boring person!" Priorities are somewhat fluid depending on the circumstances. What damage??? that your middle school student went on a camp-out and did not complete a homeowork assignment. I think that life is wayyyyyyy tooooooo shorttttt for this kind of pressure!

[acco40]

At what age should the student/scout be allowed to set their priorities versus having their parents set their their priorities?

 

I'll give you a hint. Parents have their priorities and can flow down punishments/rewards to their offspring but they really can't set their children's priorities. Only they themselves can do that.

[moosetracker]

Engineer61 - I understand your frustration. I am also hearing the different views of everyone that has written back to you. Boy what a variating range of views.. With my son I have hit everyone. Frustration with him not doing homework assignments

 

I half remember an incident. Though I have forgotten exactly the reasoning around the whole thing. But it was something about him not writing a report and I do think there was a lie involved (though I think you are dealing with a child not volunteering info since you didn't ask, directly before walking out the door if all homework was done.. Mine was a lie..) Anyway the punishment was that my son had to write me 1 report a week for a month.. The teacher when she heard about it freaked out that I was too strict a parent.. (hmmmm.. sound like this board huh?)

 

Yet during the grades of 6 and 7 the school work flipped from what I thought was too little (some rule of no more then 1 hour of homework, and rarely did he get that.) To all of a sudden the school was assigning what I thought was Too much homework. The kid came home and worked daily to 11 or 12 at night.. The weekends were filled with homework also (it was the start of the "no child left behind" I had a feeling that had something to do with this. But, sorry you can't correct your mistake of the last 5 years by forcing the kid to overwork. I went to the school to complain that this was ridiculous.. This was burning him out. (So I also hear what others are saying about too much pressure and homework now.)

 

You know what values you are trying to instill in him. You know how much the patrol relied or did not rely on him. You know what and why a teacher would assign such a major assignment without giving the student sufficient time to work it into time management, but instead force him to cancel all his plans for it..

 

But, if your child is in middle grade.. Look at all these varating opinions on this board. If none of us can be of one mind as to the right appoach to the problem. Then your son can also go down a different path of viewpoint then what you see. This is part of growing up. Unfortunately you can instill your goals and values in your child. But his mind is his own. He will come to different viewpoints then you from time to time. Then theres that point in time, where all his viewpoints will seem in total difference of opinion then you. Good luck when that times come, because when it does. This homework problem will become a small distant memory.. and you can relay to someone else.. I sort of remember when... But can't remember what the whole thing was about.. (like me now.) Because Dad, your headaches have only just begun.. Fasten your seatbelt..

[JMHawkins]

"The attitude that you can break your commitments and obligations to others whenever it's necessary to advance yourself is not what we want to teach. Even in small things.

 

Gettin' good grades is advancing yourself. There's nothing wrong with it, eh? It should be encouraged. Just not as a "highest priority." "

 

I'm with Beavah here. Now, there may be more to this particular story, but frankly Beavah's right about the general idea. Putting your academic advancement above all other obligations is selfish. Middle school kids maybe need a little coaching on the difference between a real obligation and just something they'd rather do instead of homework, and maybe the camping trip was or wasn't an obligation, but if it was, going on it was the choice I'd have wanted my son to make.

 

There's another subject involved here too. Without knowing the details of the assignment I can't say, but it seems like a lousy thing for the teacher to do, dumping lots of work on kids over the weekend. Engineer says it's "expected" but that doesn't make it right. In addition to his academic subjects, there's another lesson every kid needs to learn at some point, and that's how to deal with an authority figure making unreasonable demands.

 

Oddly enough, last week my son had a conference with his teacher. He'd been struggling with his writing assignments, taking far longer than he should have to get them done, and getting really discouraged. He'd always been a kid who liked, really liked, school, but was starting to not like it. His teacher gave him some ideas to help with the writing assignments, but wanted my son to set a limit on the time he spent writing. If he didn't get it done, oh well. "Your homework is important, but so is playing catch outside with your dad."

 

Smart teacher - he realized that "finish at all costs" was causing burnout and the long-term consequences of a kid learning to dislike school because of the pressure were far, far worse than not getting every last assignment turned in on time.

 

There's more to life than homework. A kid will do much better in life getting a B in 7th grade but enjoying school than getting an A and hating it.

 

 

 

[Engineer61]

So, I went a dug for a little more...

 

1) Scout knew assignment was due.

 

2) Scout knew that assignment could not be completed on time if he went on campout.

 

3) Scout knows OUR priorities...education first, extras second.

 

So, it appears the Scout sandbagged it and knew he was doing so.

 

Now ironically, this is the same Scout that you all gave this kind of response to his oversleeping on said campout.

 

"When I was a Scoutmaster, I always told the youth in the troop that each choice they made had consequences, the consequences could be good or they could be bad, but they made the decision. The younger scouts always asked what that meant, and I always explained the good and bad consequences of a decision. The older scouts had it figured out and would live with their decision and not complain. "

 

I could not agree more ... decisions have consequences. Bad decisions have bad consequences.

 

At this point the Scout has been warned that this will not happen again.

 

To those that wish to minimize the importance and priority of education, (and I am amazed how many of you there are) my response is ... no education, no job....no matter how many Eagle's you have.

 

 

[evmori]

Interesting. Did the Scout sleep in on this last camping trip?

 

Hopefully the consequences of his actions will be a learning tool. The upside is this is ONLY middle school and a good place to make these type of mistakes.

[sailingpj]

"1) Scout knew assignment was due.

 

2) Scout knew that assignment could not be completed on time if he went on campout. "

 

How long had he know that the assignment was due? If he only found out about it that friday afternoon then that is one thing, but if he knew that the teacher would be assigning a large project for the weekend anytime before lunch that day he should have either gotten on his cell phone during lunch and called his PL, or SM, or you and let everyone know that he wasn't going to be able to make it.

 

As to your second point, that does change things a bit. If I did that my mom would not have allowed me to go to the next event at all, and she would have started requiring that I have all my homework completed before leaving on friday afternoon for a month or so.

[CalicoPenn]

Education may come first, but if a teacher in our area assigned a major writing project on a Friday, with no prior warning, requiring research, that was due the next Tuesday, and couldn't be done without disrupting weekend plans, that teacher would be getting career counseling from the Vice Principal or Assistant Superintendent of Academics.

 

I live in the suburbs of Chicago - the school districts here are among the best in the nation - just being a student from our schools provides an intangible advantage in applying for college (in much the same way being an Eagle Scout does). Parents here take education seriously. They also take work/life balance pretty seriously - and this situation would not go unnoticed and uncommented on.

 

The Scout made his own decison - he lives with the consequences - consequences that in the grand scheme of things won't mean a hill of beans. He's not going to fail the class because his assignment was late by a day, he's not going to drop out because his assignment was late by a day. He's not going to have to change college plans because his assignment was late by a day. He's still going to get an education.

 

Interesting that Mama Bear was upset about Scout not getting breakfast because he slept in, but isn't upset with an unreasonable homework assignment (and it was unreasonable if it was a surprise assignment) and hasn't chewed the ear off the Principal of Scout's school.

[nolesrule]

As far as I'm concerned, any home-based assignments that go beyond normal homework need to be on the course syllabus at the beginning of the course (I don't care if it's middle school, high school or college) complete with dates for both when the assignment details will be formally given to the student and the turn-in date.

 

There needs to be adequate time to set planning and priorities for both school work and personal life. And that includes the need to be considerate to the student's family as well.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[Engineer61]

An interesting set of comments.

 

I can say from personal experience that I don't believe I've ever encountered a "Course Syllabus" at any level of my education the ever specified all assignments and their specific due dates. In fact, the only HARD dates that were ever given were the dates of mid-terms and finals. In my middle school and high school years, a syllabus was not even provided. This has been consistent with my older children's school experience as well. (Scout is the youngest.)

 

I consider this a lesson in the proper use of re-prioritization. In this case, my Scout failed, but he learned a lesson.

 

In this school district, assignment are even given over the mid-semester breaks, sometimes for the semester breaks for full year courses.

 

I simply refer to it as "Teacher's Prerogative" just as my boss can exercise "Management Prerogative" and reassign my design tasks/requirements/dates as he sees fit.

 

I did not view the assignment to have been unreasonable in any way.

 

 

[nolesrule]

Not all assignments. Just those above and beyond what would be considered regular homework and especially if these long assignments are expected to be done over the weekend. There really aren't a whole lot of them over the course of a class. In all classes I took, at the beginning of the class the expectations were set out. Daily homework expectations, major assignments and when they would be due, the number of tests and when they would be.

 

 

This should hold true for both school and employment. There should be no place for a teacher or employer to infringe on your personal time at the last minute, unless it constitutes some sort of emergency. (In IT, that would be when the server goes down and it brings the company to a halt)

 

It shouldn't matter whether it's a scouting event, family trip to Disney World, or any number of other reasons (such as traveling to a friend or family baptism, bar mitzvah, wedding, etc.)

 

Edit to add: The other option, when it comes to last minute major school assignments, is asking for a time extension at the time assignment is given and explaining that it would be impossible to get it done by the due date because he will be out of town all weekend.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)