Potential DL has prior Dom Viol conviction... can he serve?

[ScoutNut]

The problem is that most here seem to NOT be willing to let him be merely an "active dad".

 

The problem is that most seem to want WestCoastScouter to tell everyone in the Pack about his background, even if he stays merely an "active dad".

 

I am not sure what the folks here think that WCScouters Pack should then do with/to this family. Punish the dad, because he had the effrontery to be honest when asked by the Pack to take on the role of den leader, by what? Not allowing him to attend any den or Pack functions? Not allowing him, or his wife, to help the Pack in any way? Kicking him out of the Pack? Kicking him, and his wife who had the bad judgment to marry him out of the Pack? Kicking the man, his wife, and his son, out of the Pack, and blackballing them to any other Pack in the District?

 

So what do you all suggest WCScouter do?

 

Personally, I doubt this man will EVER be honest about his background again, and will simply say NO loudly if he is ever asked to volunteer for anything again.

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Scoutnut,

 

Dude! I am wondering if we are on the same post here?

 

Who ever once said anything about kicking the guy out? Who dragged his wife into it? Who once said anything about kicking him, his wife or son out?

 

Is that what you got out of people honestly questioning how comfortable they would feel about a man who freely admitted to his PUBLIC and LEGALLY DOCUMENTED case of losing control over his emotions-and assaulting somebody - working in the den?

 

Me personally...I NEVER once said anybody should be kicked out. NEVER! But I did say that that particular pack should tread very, very carefully with this situation as to how the parents of the scouts in this pack might feel or react if they ever did find out.

 

Given the choices, I'd rather tell the parents with an OPEN, HONEST, AND TRUTHFUL conversation than to HIDE, BE SECRETIVE, or DECEITFUL with information that you yourself would want to know.

 

Now before you keep judging us on our "unscrupulous " mindset.....first look at yours:

 

You exagerated big time with the wife and son - who only YOU mentioned, and you condone the pack, the leadership, the COR, CO, and CC being secretive about a person who has a legal record of ASSAULTING someone else.

 

DUDE! How can you question our intents or values here?

 

 

 

WRONG! IF.. that is a big IF ..the dad became a DL, then the CO, COR, the CC and the pack OWE the rest of the parents the truth and nothing less.

 

If he's just an active dad. well...he's treated just as/ no more dangerous than anybody else!

 

The very first thing I said was that chances were good that the guy probably defended himself and the ex turned it around. But I could be wrong. I could be right. But I would not chance a single scout's safety with it. Apparently you would!

 

AS for the guy..If he truely is innocent, it really does suck for him. But you have to remember, people have been shown videos of themselves commiting crimes and still swear they didn't do anythuing. People tend to lie sabout their guilt.

 

The biggest thing to remember is that the whole of the pack is much, much more important than the well being of one.

 

Do not risk the health and safety of the pack over just one man's reputation that is already legally tainted.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Basementdweller]

Scoutfish

 

 

Here is the issue

 

Today he is a super guy, Active with his son and helping the Pack and den.

 

Tomorrow word gets out he had a domestic violence issue, it is irrelevant what actually happened, he will be treated differently.

 

Seen it happen.

 

Depends on the location of the Pack too, Inner City, he will more likely be accepted. Suburbs if not asked to leave, treated in such a way they will leave. Small town, depends on whether he is a local or transplant.

[ScoutNut]

WCScouter mentioned both the wife and son in his very first post, I did not make them up.

 

WCScouter also said that this man would rather stay just an active dad rather than have his past come out.

 

As for him being "truly innocent", DUDE! again, as WCScouter stated in his opening post he is not "innocent". He made a mistake, received probation, and paid his dues about seven years age.

 

DUDE! If you feel he is such a horrible threat to the youth in the Pack, why is it OK for him to stay on as just an "active dad"?

 

And DUDE! Can you honestly say that you, Dude, have NEVER, EVER, lost control of your emotions? For all we know, you, Dude, could have a prison record. Even if you don't, that only means you were never caught loosing control of your emotions.

 

This man is now married, and both he and his wife are "assets to the Pack". He has a son who is a Scout, and who he takes to all Scouting activities. When asked, he did NOT try to hide his past. He simply stated that he would rather NOT be a registered leader if it meant his past would become public knowledge.

 

I don't blame him for not wanting his family hurt. And, DUDE, hurt they would be.

 

And DUDE, NO I do NOT think any Pack is worth punishing, and hurting a little boy.

 

I guess, DUDE, we must agree to disagree, over how to treat this man and his family.

 

[T2Eagle]

Granted, no one would know anything if this person didnt say anything --- unless they found out some other way. I am very much against the idea that we background check every parent or everyone we come in contact with. But now one scouter does know something, but not enough to know everythings OK. Domestic Violence is usually a descriptive term not the name of the actual crime committed. The actual offense might be assault, or battery, or assault with a deadly weapon, or assault with intent to maim, or criminal sexual conduct, etc. Did he beat up his wife, or his kid? Did he plead to one in order to get other charges dropped? Im not advocating that the whole Pack be told whats going on; Im not advocating that he not be allowed to participate in scouting with his son. Im saying this isnt a decision that should be one persons, and this is something that needs a lot more facts before its decided its OK.

 

Which other crimes would we say well he only got probation, he did his time let bygones be bygones? Hes a good guy let him be an active dad? Drug dealing? Bank robbery? Auto theft?

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

"The problem is that most here seem to NOT be willing to let him be merely an "active dad"."

 

Yes I have a problem with "Active Dad"!

I have no idea how active an "Active Dad" Is?

I'm not sure that I would want someone who has not been checked out being active around my kid or any-other kid.

In my book if you want to be "Active". You play the game by the rules.

If you are not willing too? Than no matter how much of an asset you might seem to be to the Pack. In my view you become a liability.

Yes I'm very aware that this might sound unfair and I know that I'm guilty of covering my own tail.

But I just can't imagine how bad I'd feel if something were to happen and I hadn't insisted on all active adults having gone through the background check.

This isn't to say that this person or any other person who is a parent shouldn't be an "Involved Parent" Just not an "Active Dad"

Eamonn

 

 

(Side Note - Wearing my moderator hat.

I think we can do without all the "Dude Stuff" -Thanks!

[SctDad]

Active dad or involved dad, I do not see the difference. The guy is interested in his son being in the program.

 

I do not see how he is a liability. He is not signing as a DL. So if you had never asked him, then no one would have ever known.

 

I am not saying ignore everything. If you suspect that something may be wrong, then report it accordig to the YP guidelines. But be careful this is an ICY slope and it is hard to stop.

 

Give the guy a chance. Maybe he has truly changed. If anyone says anything, tell them that he is not a registered leader and therefore his backgrond is not an issue.

 

If they still have a problem, ask them all for driving records and all those with speeding tickets or other moving violation will no longer be able to drive scouts other than their own on trips and events. Tell them it is because if they were speeding once then they must drive that way all the time.

 

Ea Just for you "DUDE"

Just having fun.(This message has been edited by SctDad)

[Eamonn]

"Give the guy a chance."

In them five words is my big problem!

The chance isn't mine to give.

 

I'd been around for a good while when these checks came out.

No one, I hope ever said Eamonn has been around for a while let's not bother checking him out.

A local chief of police wanted to be active, no one said that just because he is the chief of police we don't need to bother.

My definition of an involved parent is a parent who ensures that his son is active and supports his son. Active? I think gets more deeply involved and gets involved with helping more with the pack or the Den.

Life isn't always fair.

I really don't buy into the traffic violations argument. I'll admit that four years ago I misjudged when the light was going to turn red. I got caught, I paid the fine, got a couple of points. In time here in PA,so long as I don't do anything else silly in my car these points will disappear. A violent crime record will in most cases stick with me forever.

 

Some years back I was on staff for a WB course. One participant, a nice guy. After the course, while he was working on his ticket went to a local Fireman's Club had a few drinks was on his way home when he got into a fight. I don't know the details of the fight, who started it? Or what it was about. It turned out that the other person was only seventeen. The SE at the time removed this guy from Scouting until the case went to court and when he was found guilty his membership in the BSA was revoked.

In the Troop my son was in. They had an "Active Parent" in fact he as the best friend of the SM. Many years back he was at a District Camporee and he mooned a group of Scouts. The then District Chair. (Not me!) Seen this and was very upset. The SE revoked this guys membership. Years went by. His wife served as Troop treasurer. He sat in on the committee meetings and was some kind of Eagle Scout Mentor, even though he was no longer a member. When his youngest son aged out (He had 3 boys.) The Troop leaders and Troop Committee petitioned National to have him reinstated as a member. National refused, the SE said it was because it had to o with youth protection.

I of course have no idea why any adult would feel the need to moon a group of Scouts. As far as I know this guy wasn't in the habit of going around mooning people. So while I'm not sure, I think for as long as it takes to moon someone? He showed a total lack of good judgment.

Even though ten or more years had past and most of the people who were around when this happened had moved on National seen this lack of good judgment as being something that they weren't going to take a chance with.

Eamonn

 

(When I first read "Dom Viol" I thought this was some kind of religious award!)(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[Abel Magwitch]

It all depends on the council and the scout executive. In my council, an active member of my district has been allowed to be a member. He is very active in the Cub Scouts. He is a Cub Master and also held the position last year of camping chair for the district. Council is well aware of his criminal record. He is a convicted felon - (guilty of two counts robbery, both 2nd degree felonies, and one count of safecracking, 3rd degree felony. According to the court docket, he was also charged with kidnapping, breaking and entering and theft but the judge nolled those charges. So I guess it all depends on the discretion of the Scout Executive.

 

 

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Scoutfish,

 

I am going to bet you would be very surprised at the amount of skeletons in the closets of the people you know.

 

It is absolutely none of our business what any of these parents did in the past. Now if they want to become a volunteer, well that is a different story.

 

What I can do is follow BSA guidelines.

 

Now in all honestly, you have never, ever done anything in your past that is not embarrassing, humiliating or even remotely criminal.

[nolesrule]

Yeah, you never know with cases like this. Here's something currently in the news just a few miles down the road.

 

From the St. Pete Times:

 

Before last week, 73-year-old Theresa Collier, grandmother of four, retired homemaker from New Hampshire, had no criminal record.

 

But on Wednesday, after slapping her 18-year-old granddaughter for "cursing like a trucker" and calling her names unfit to print in this newspaper, Collier was arrested and spent more than 24 hours in jail on domestic violence charges.

 

While Largo police call it a case of battery and stand by the arrest, dozens of residents have spoken out in defense of the grandmother and questioned the department's zero-tolerance policy.

 

(And later in the article, it also mentions that the granddaughter even hit back.)

[Scoutfish]

 

 

That's the only story I am talking about.

 

I said:

 

*****

 

 

 

WRONG! IF.. that is a big IF ..the dad became a DL, then the CO, COR, the CC and the pack OWE the rest of the parents the truth and nothing less.

 

If he's just an active dad. well...he's treated just as/ no more dangerous than anybody else! ****

 

If he's just an active parents..treat him like any parent.

 

 

Me? Yep, smoked some weed when I was younger, drank some beer underage and once I drove 6 miles on pavement with my truck locked into 4 wheel drive because the girl beside me ( Now my wife ) was too pretty to not look at!

 

Oh...I did think some butt ugly clothes were cool at the time!

 

[SctDad]

Scoutfish

 

I think that you and I are on the same page, but I just want to make sure that I am understanding you.

 

The only time that you feel that his past should be disclosed is if he signs up to be a DL or any other REGISTERED (Caps for emphasis) leader.

 

If he signs no paperwork, then his past is that, past. And no one else has any right to know.

 

As for if he should become a registered leader, I would leave it up to the CO/IH/COR to make that call. I would also explain it to him about what you are doing so that he knows. Obviosly he know about the background check. Le5t the higher ups make the call, and hold a parents meeting to tell the parents, if they deen appropriate.

[nldscout]

So where do you draw the line on a parent when you find out they have a violent criminal history?

 

What if the parent was a convicte/ registered sex offender?

 

Where do you deceide?

[Eagle92]

I have mixed emotions on this. On one hand the guy seems to have his life back in order and is a contributing member of society. So part of me says give him a chance.

 

On the other hand, while a background check is not 100% accurate, nor can it detect those who have not been caught yet, it is a deterent to those who would prey upon the scouts. I have had to del with a YP issue in which a volunteer did not have a background check and things happened. This happened in the UK and I remember the incident to this day. So part of me says keep a very close eye on the situation.