Adults also have rights.

[Eamonn]

Have been thinking about all this Boy Led /Youth Led stuff.

I'm very much for the Scouts we serve thinking.

Thinking isn't a bad thing.

I'm also in favor of planning.

Nothing wrong with a good plan.

I'm also all for everyone having fun.

I would bet that if I turned around and informed the members of the Ship that I had made up my mind that our next four weekends away would only be about knots and more knots. They would be none to happy.

I'm sure the guys and girls who make up the Quarterdeck would have something to say about it.

 

Of course I would never do such a thing.

It just isn't how we go about things.

There have been times when a few members of the QD have put what they want to do, before what the members of the Ship want to do. They have managed to get the QD to go along with it.

The end result is that turn out and attendance for these events has been very poor.

Each and every member of the Ship has the right to attend or not attend any event which they please.

We try to find activities that will appeal to most of the Scouts most of the time.

The QD has at times come up with ideas of things that they would like to do, which are things I really don't want to do and things to be honest that I'm un-willing to give up my time doing.

My feeling is that the time is mine and I have as much right as they have to attend or not attend.

I am however willing to let them know that just because I'm not going doesn't mean that the idea has to be discarded, it just means that they have to find a way of doing whatever it is without me.

I do however make it clear that if they can't find a way. That the problem is their's and I'm still not going.

I have my own reasons for not doing some stuff.

Some of the things that they want to do, I don't see as "Scouting Stuff" and I'm un-willing to give up my time to participate in something I didn't sign on for.

Sometimes it's just things that I don't enjoy.

I know some Troops have "Free Weekends" Where the adults take care of all that needs to be done and the Scouts are free to play video games and the like.

While that is fine and dandy, I would never waste my time on such a weekend.

This is something that they could plan and do at each others homes.

A while back a couple of Scouts thought that we could visit the Everglades.

Last time I was there I was eaten alive by bugs (Big Bugs!).Again this was something that I was unwilling to do. I did say that if they could find the adults,that I'd be willing to help them with their planning. - They changed their mind.

I don't feel that I'm in any way out of line.

I feel that I have as much right as they do to do things which are fun.

Eamonn.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

I agree.

 

We have a dad -- an ASM at that -- who feels it's his job to keep things "light, fun and entertaining," by which he means don't always focus on this Scouting stuff all the time. A couple years ago he volunteered to put together a Jeopardy!-style game for TLT. One of the categories was titled "FUN STUFF" and was all answers and questions wholly unrelated to Scouting, popular music, movies, TV, video games and the like. I really got my knickers in a knot over that one. What kind of message is it when we advertise "Scout Stuff" vs. "Fun Stuff."

 

From time to time I've had Scouts with the same attitude. I explain there are things we do as Scouts and particular ways we do them. The troop used to have "family campouts" which meant "bring your mother and let her powder your butt for you." No more. As a newbie SM I was twice convinced to allow campouts with no theme, purpose or planned activies. Those two weekends were the only time I've ever had to send a kid home -- idle hands and all.

 

You want to hand out at the mall, go to a movie, eat Cheetos and PopTarts all weekend? Stay home and let your parents deal with you.

[Beavah]

Yah, balance in all things.

 

I think it's just fine to say "no" to da lazy video events. I can't figure why any adults would waste their time on 'em when it's stuff the lads can do on their own.

 

At the same time, I reckon we also have to be an example of how to be a good team member. If an important or necessary member of the QD or PLC kept shootin' down any activity that he didn't like by refusin' to support the group, then I reckon a good unit leader would be havin' a word or two with him. Somethin' about Scout Spirit and teamwork and how we support each other, and support da decision of the group even when it's not the decision we wanted.

 

So Eamonn, I reckon there's a difference between a "Free Weekend (with adult slaves)" and goin' on a troop or ship trip to the Everglades. I'd say no to da first, eh? But the second? I reckon it'd be time to suck it up and buy some DEET and permethrin.

 

Adults have rights, but I reckon what's more important is that we have responsibilities.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[jhankins]

So video game tournaments at NOAC are a waste of time?

[Eamonn]

Beavah,

There isn't enough money out there that would get me in that part of the world again.

My first air boat ride was my last!

 

"So video game tournaments at NOAC are a waste of time?"

Wasting time is like beauty -In the eye of the beholder.

Some people think going on a hike to end up where you started is a waste of time.

Others think sitting around reading a book is a waste of time.

I don't enjoy video games.

I can't see me giving up a weekend to take a group of young people away to do something that they can do with little or no organization or planning.

I'm very lucky in that I get lots of vacation.

I'm not so lucky that my days off are Sunday and Monday. This of course means that I have to use a days vacation for every weekend I want to have off.

I'm more than happy to waste a days vacation taking a group sailing or take a week or more off to go kayaking.

I've been asked several times to attend NOAC. But to tell the truth that isn't something that really interests me, so for me that would be a waste of my time.

I don't enjoy standing out in the cold with a group of Sea Scouts selling hoagies. But I see a need for it.

I'm not that keen on our local swimming pool, it has way too much chlorine in it. But when asked I go and teach life saving.

I hate the cold, but have taken the Ship skiing and snow tubing. Admittedly you will normally find me indoors with a big mug of hot chocolate in hand.

The Ship is thinking about a trip to Canada, I hear the black flies are a real pest, I'm willing to find out.

If they eat me alive? I'll add this to the list of places that I will not be going again.

If they were planning to go on a week long hike in the middle of winter. They would have to find an adult who likes that sort of thing. I don't.

I'm not willing to give up vast amounts of my time to do things that I really dislike and don't enjoy.

When I'm driving a group of Scouts, I'm OK with eating fast food, even though I'm not a fan of fast food. Still I really dislike Arby's. So guess where we never stop?

 

Ea.

[hotdesk]

I'm sorry, but if you've volunteered to be the Unit Leader, you've volunteered to attend ALL activities of your unit, that fit into your schedule. If you have another conflict (coaching, job, etc.) that's fine. If it's simply not something you're willing do, that is an issue.

 

Your job is to support the unit's youth leaders in whatever it is they decide to do. The committee can make sure that it is something scout appropriate and you should be their chief adviser in this.

 

I've gone through my share of things that I wouldn't do on my own...but that's part of what we signed on for.

 

As far as adult rights, you do have a right...to decide if your willing to serve as the Unit Leader or as an Assistant or on the Committee.

[Twocubdad]

"Your job is to support the unit's youth leaders in whatever it is they decide to do. "

 

I must have missed that part of training. Can you point to literature which supports that?

[Lisabob]

I'm sorry, but if you've volunteered to be the Unit Leader, you've volunteered to attend ALL activities of your unit, that fit into your schedule. If you have another conflict (coaching, job, etc.) that's fine. If it's simply not something you're willing do, that is an issue.

 

 

Maybe this is why we have such difficulty finding people to take on the #1 leadership spot.

 

I certainly think that the unit leader ought to be at most things! I'm not sure I'd say ALL things. I do think that a unit leader should assist the youth in planning events as needed, and in locating other adults who can fill in, when the SM/Crew Adviser/CM/Whoever cannot (or will not) attend. And I hear Eamonn saying he does those things.

 

 

[evmori]

When I signed on as Scoutmaster, I knew it was my responsibility to be there. If I had a schedule conflict, I tried to clear it. If I couldn't, my ASM's would take over. I missed very little and loved every minute.

 

Leaders who don't show up because they don't want to should be dropped from the charter.

[sherminator505]

""Your job is to support the unit's youth leaders in whatever it is they decide to do. "

 

I must have missed that part of training. Can you point to literature which supports that?"

 

Normally my grasp of English is much better than this, but I'm not sure what you're asking here...

[hotdesk]

"Plan and help carry out the Cub Scout program in the pack. This includes leading the monthly pack meeting, with the help of other leaders."---www.scouting.org

 

"Attend all troop meetings or, when necessary, arrange for a qualified adult substitute."---www.scoutmaster.org

 

"Conduct all activities under qualified leadership, safe conditions, and the policies of the chartered organization and the Boy Scouts of America."---www.scoutmaster.org

 

First and foremost, like I've said before, if you have conflicts, fine, so be it! Get an Assistant to cover for you.

 

The above lines also help me do what I'm going to do next...give an interpretation...

 

In order to operate a scout lead program they have to believe that they have the support of their adult leaders. Mainly they need to believe that they have the support of their Unit Leader. Doing this would be very hard if they see their Unit Leader not attending because they simply didn't want to. In this situation they're probably going to start questioning what there doing...no reason for this to be happening if their program is within scout guidelines. In addition, this is a poor example to be setting for the scouts.

 

Also, like I said before, if their program isn't within scout guidelines, that's one of the things the committee should be checking for before passing the program.

 

One of the things that we've been talking a lot about, on this forum, is how to get scouts to attend more! Kinda of a pointless discussion of we as unit leaders set the example that we're talking about in this thread. How are you going to tell Billy that he needs to attend when you're not?

 

Furthermore, in order for a program to be carried out successfully, the image needs to be that the Unit Leader and Committee Chairman care about what's going on. In this regards putting the program above yourself is one of the very few ways of accomplishing this. As Committee Chairman, I can't honestly expect other adults to think that I care if I'm blowing something off, just for the heck of it.

 

As Committee Chairman, if our Cubmaster or Scoutmaster started missing multiple outings in a year we'd have a discussion about that. If the opinion came across that they were not attending because it wasn't an activity that they were interested in, I'd point them in the direction of an Assistant Unit Leader position or committee position.

[Gary_Miller]

Adults don't have rights.

 

They only have a responsibility to the youth.

 

Part of that responsibility is to train the youth leadership on their responsibility of ensuring that the scout program is well thought out, planned, and scheduled where it allows for the most possible participation.

 

As an adult your have a responsibility to advise the youth on appropriate activities and what makes an appropriate activity. The youth then have the right to decide on what they will do. Your responsibility as a adult leader/advisor is to then salute smartly and provide support.

 

If you can't participate because of a scheduling conflict thats why you have a committee to help provide support so the activity can happen.

 

When we signed up as a volunteer leader we said we would do the job according to the guidelines and policies of the BSA. Which is a youth ran youth lead program. If you can't/don't want to do that then you have a responsibility to get out of the way so someone else can.

 

 

[acco40]

One of the reasons I stepped down as Scoutmaster a few years ago was for similar debates like this. When I was Scoutmaster, I believe part of my "job" was to provide continuity, a public face to the troop, consistent expectations for the Scouts, etc. Some of the parents wanted a "Scoutmaster of the month" type of leadership. You've seen the types, they distribute a calendar at the beginning of the year and ask all parents - Scouters or not - to pick two outings to "go on" and at least one to "lead."

 

As a Scoutmaster, my biggest challenge was not the Scouts but the parents who were not trained, and wanted to do things their way. Now, I'm not a control freak but when a mother pushed for the troop to eat as a troop (not as patrols) becaused we could save money by buying in bulk, have the adults cook up and clean, because they can do a better job and do it quicker, etc. I put my foot down. Yes, I stated, your observations are correct but that is not the Scouting program. The goal is not who can cook and clean the fastest, who can feed the boys the cheapest, etc. The methods and aims meant nothing to them - just get Johnny to Eagle!

 

Now one may say that playing video games has no merit but the outing can be beneficial. We usually limited our outings to one video outing a year. The boys panned where, made reservations, made sure the electrical hook-ups were sufficient (most Scout camp cabins were not designed around big screen TVs and game counsoles!), meal planning, transportation planning. The new things to plan for - compatible controllers, allowable games, sharing,

etc. I found out that they really took ownership because they knew that their Scoutmaster, i.e. me, could care less if their X-boxes, PSPs, Wiis, etc. worked right or not.

 

I also found out that there was also a few boys who want to organize a pick up game of touch football or ultimate frisbee and challenge their 50 plus year old Scoutmaster. I happily obliged.

 

My mantra was that if they planned it, i.e. not sit back and wait for adults to arrange entertainment for them, they could pretty much plan anything they wanted as long as it was not a health and safety issue. I did have a few "my rules" that could be perceived as adult led - at least one winter campout in tents, no more than one video outing per year, etc. but I gave them quite a bit of leeway and you can bet that although not thrilled with every selection I went on 90% of the outings - and was glad I did. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Eamonn]

Not sure where to start!

"Your job is to support the unit's youth leaders in whatever it is they decide to do. The committee can make sure that it is something scout appropriate and you should be their chief adviser in this. The committee can make sure that it is something scout appropriate and you should be their chief adviser in this."

No Way!!

"Your job is to support the unit's youth leaders in whatever it is they decide to do."

Think about how silly this is?

 

"The committee can make sure that it is something scout appropriate"

Have never heard of such nonsense.

The program side of Scouting is left up to the people who serve as leaders.

 

"Leaders who don't show up because they don't want to should be dropped from the charter."

I never said anything about not showing up.

I would make it very clear at the planning stage, that if something wasn't my cup of tea, there would be a need to find an alternative adult. -Saying that you are going and not showing up? That would be just wrong.

 

"When we signed up as a volunteer leader we said we would do the job according to the guidelines and policies of the BSA."

I don't see where any guidelines, rules or policies have been broken.

 

Some years back a new DE was given the responsibility of being the professional for the Council Camping Committee. She sent out a letter announcing a mandatory meeting.

I reminded her that I was a volunteer and in my book there were no such things as mandatory meetings.

I'm sure we have all had times when things have not gone well, the weather is bad and the last thing we want to do is drag ourselves to a Scout meeting.

We do of course go, even though we know chances are that half the kids are not going to show up.

This is part of what being the leader is about.

I have taken "Mud" Scouts out sailing with our Sea Scouts, without their Troop leaders. These leaders claim to get sea sick as soon as the get on board anything on the water.

I'd much sooner take these Lads and allow them to have an enjoyable time without anyone around who really didn't want to be there.

I don't in any way see these leaders as not living up to their responsibilities.

I've attended regional meetings, paid through the nose for a room in a hotel, paid way too much for a rubber chicken dinner, but refused to pay $79.00 for breakfast.

I can't eat $79.00 worth of food for breakfast.

Am I guilty of not doing the job I was selected to do?

Is this any different than spending several hundred dollars to go to the Everglades a place I know that I don't like?

I see my living up to my responsibilities much the same as I do my living the Scout Law and Oath.

I'm willing to do my best.The only person who really knows what my best is me!

I don't care if the Ship all decided to go and see a horror movie. I refuse point blank to sit through one. I would never watch one at home, I'd never part with my hard earned money to see one and just because a QD or PLC wanted to I see no reason why I should go with them.

Ea.

[FScouter]

Eamonn, I'm with you 100%.