ASM

[Eamonn]

Don't know about anyone else?

But having read the link that Blancmange posted. The BSA has made it very clear what the rule is.

 

This youth led thing.

Is wonderful when it happens.

But it doesn't happen all the time and I'll bet my bottom dollar that in most of the Troops in the District I serve it hardly ever happens.

It takes a fair amount of time for a new leader to really understand how it works, then more time to get the Scouts to see how it works and then a little time for everyone to fall into it, by which time there is a new group of Scouts and we are back to the "Deer caught in the headlights"

I love the Disney movie the Jungle Book.

There is a great scene with three vultures who sound very much like the Beatles. #1 Vulture asks the others "What shall we do?"

#2 Answers "I don't know, what do you want to do?

#3 Vulture replies "I don't know, what do you want to do?"

#1 Vulture again asks "What shall we do?"

I have even with older Sea Scouts gone through this sort of thing a lot of times.

It takes a while for a leader to be able to get the Scouts thinking and maybe at the same time steer them into doing what was going to happen anyway, while having them think it was all their idea.

 

moosetracker,

Scoutmasters are not slaves to the Scouts they serve.

If the SM has very strong religious convictions that he feels he must follow. I would hope that we all would respect them.

He would explain to the PLC that his attendance at the church of his choice was something that just wasn't negotiable and whatever plans they made would be made with this in mind.

There are some dates when no matter what, I would never plan an event and if there was an event planned, I'd make it clear that if left to me, we wouldn't be going. (I'm thinking of my birthday, HWMBO birthday,Mothers Day , our anniversary and dates like that.) I'd be fine with some other adult who was up to the task, taking my place. But if there wasn't anyone? That's just the way it is.

Of course when we make our annual plan I would make sure everyone knew what dates I wasn't going to be available. Sadly some events are not always planned when we make our plan.

Most situations can be avoided with careful planning and open communication.

So to answer your question " Would the SM not allow them to go?"

My hope would be that it would never get that far. The hike would be planned so as everyone would be happy.

Beavah makes a good point.

If you are unhappy serving as an Assistant to the Scoutmaster and there is no way of working things out, maybe you are not assisting him and it's time to look elsewhere?

Or maybe it's time to just think what ASM stands for?

Ea.

 

 

[moosetracker]

No. But, then the SM, should make sure there was too deep leadership, and stay home.. But, let the scouts go on the activity they planned.

 

I do hope they are only tied to a denomination they need to attend every sunday.. NOT a specific church. Otherwise they are always camping in their own backyard.

 

The SM does not need to go to all events, as long as their is appropriate supervision.

 

Also your talking Dates, of which most may fall on or off the weekends. (Sorry kids, not this weekend, but maybe next weekend) That is different..

 

This is every weekend. In which case he would need to find a way to get what he needs and allow the scouts to still do what they would like to do. Which may mean allowing them to go on events without him.

[pictak]

To clarify a little, First off I will say this SM is a my way or highway kind of guy. As for the committe, there is none, I have been involved with this troop for a year there has never been a committe meeting. I think the ghost committe that is there is in name only. They let the SM run things..all things including funds. One of the committe members is the pastor of the church the meetings are held at, I have never met him. When there is a campout it is always local and close to the SM's church. There has never been a PLC meeting and the SPL hardly ever attnds meetings or campouts/hikes the troop is down to 7 boys, 5 active every week.

[moosetracker]

Then hopefully ALL scouts will leave, so the troop can fold.

 

BSA policy is that there must be at least 3 members in the committee. If the committee is a "ghost" committee, then the CO and the SM are lieing to the BSA Council and district.

 

If the SM has that much power, then the boys are slaves to his will. Maybe the SM isn't a slave to the whims of the boys, but the boys should not be a slave to the whims of the SM.

 

He isn't even offering proper outings.

 

Are you the only ASM? If you are, I would fear leaving and leaving the boys without two deep leadership.. But if you aren't I would find a better troop for you and your sons. One that is fun for the boys..

 

You can try to talk with the council, if you leave and there is only one, but sometimes for the sake of numbers, the district may turn a blind eye to a problem that will cause them to close a troop. Especially if the troop can make it look fine on paper.

 

But if I were you I would talk to the CO about the problems with the troop & BSA rules.. No committee, forced religous denomination. If they don't do anything. I would then talk to the District Excutive.. You can hope that one of them may care.

 

But, the troop really should not be allowed to exist like this.

 

Maybe the District can assign someone to come in and educate the COR and parents in order for them to understand the need for a "true" committee. But, then you still have the religous problem. Maybe some parents who do not like the forced religion, if they know that they can make a committee and force policy against it, that the SM would have to follow. Plus get him to allow the boys to choose their own events, let them run their troop etc.. Maybe if parents are educated to knowing that as a committee, they can (not run the week to week meetings, or events) but can create overall general policies to change the overall policies that change the direction of the troop. Maybe..

 

But if the SM is a "My way" kind of guy.. He will just ignore the policy and do it his way anyway.

 

This is a disaster that is currently in process.. Either it has to change or die..

 

Been there, done that.. Not fun..

 

You yourself (if not trained.) Get trained. Chances are the SM would prefer to control you through ignorance..

 

Sorry, you are waking up bad, bad memories.

[pictak]

Moose to reply to a cpl things. I have no son's I returned to scouting because as I said I am a Eagle scout and I owe them a lifetime worth of memories. I do not think things will change so maybe I will look for another troop in a few months. I really hate to leave because there is always that hope you can change things for the better.

[pictak]

Oh yeah, one more thing. as far as trained I have taken every online course the B.S.A. has and have attended the University of Scouting will soon take woodbadge. I am 57 and a little rusty and the courses really help.

[moosetracker]

Everyone else must be away for the weekend. Otherwise this should be getting ALOT of attention by others alot more knowledgable then me. We have some wonderfully knowledgable DE's, COR's and SM's and others in this forum.

 

I am glad that you are trained, that should help you noting what other things the SM is doing against BSA policy.. My problem was as I got trained I knew enough to talk to others about the way the troop was being run incorrectly, but I had to go through "untraining" their way and "retraining" the right way, which took going back to the same course several times to get things all straight..

 

Still you are sitting on something that looks very fishy, and you start this thread with "I have kind of a problem...) and we got one problem. Now here is problem 2 and 3..

 

1) No committee & I suspect an uninvolved CO.. With the posibility this troop is being rechartered by people who filled out apps a long time ago, left the troop and someone (SM) is paying for them to keep them on the charter without their knowledge, in order to illegally keep the troop going.. Or, that parents are signing an app, without knowing what they are signing up for..

2) Boys have no control over their program, maybe are going on outings, but at least most "adult run" troops have fun outings. These scouts really are not getting the BSA program, because they go no where!

 

I am suspecting if the SM is controlling them in the outings and the religion there are other control issues that are not by BSA rule.. The thing is someone with training to spot them would need to come in to watch. There are many manipulative ways an adult can force the submission of youth. (one being to make them feel like sinners who need to repent.)

 

ARE YOU the only other Adult leader?.. Before you got there, was there any other adult leader? Was this man doing one on one with this scouts? Does he do any other mind games with the scouts to make them feel inadequate, lacking, unworthy.. How many scouts are there in this troop?

 

I just see the potential for major youth protection violations. I am just freaked by the lack of multi-adult supervision to make sure this troop is healthy. There is a reason for these checks and balances. Without them a control freak (to the point of needing psychological care), can run amok with our youth.

 

Before leaving, you owe it to the scouts in the program to talk to the COR, the District.. And if neither step in talk to the parents of scouts in the program, and those from the feeder pack.. Let them know what is going on, and what the potential dangers could be.

 

If this is not a healthy troop, then you should not walk away without doing your best to protect these kids.. Maybe with this latest issue where a scout won 18.5 million from the BSA for neglegence of a situation, your timing may be just right to be able to protect these scouts.

 

If not make sure you tell the district you have left in writing, and definatly sign up for a different troop, so that you don't remain a "ghost" on this mans charter..

[Twocubdad]

I admit this has my Spidey Sense tingling, but I don't think it's time to fly in the team from Criminal Minds.

 

I see a unit which is clearly struggling. Yes, there's not enough active adults for a legal unit committee, but there is only the minimum number of active youth for a legal unit, too. You don't have to be involved in new unit recruitment long to know there are more troops like this than you may imagine.

 

But let's not necessarily assume the SM has nefarious intentions. I'm seeing a unit with five active boys and two active leaders. I wish 40% of the parents in my unit were active!

 

I'm not a trained commissioner, but I would want to know which way this unit is heading. Does the SM have a plan to grow and add both youth and adults, or was at one time the unit larger will a full complement of leaders? Clearly you and the SM need a plan.

 

Your District Commission and Executive are your resource. Helping units like yours is their job and they have a vested interest in saving and growing the unit.

 

On the other hand, if the SM likes the current situation and doesn't want to fix the troop, Moosetracker has the right idea.

[Eamonn]

Scouting is supposed to be fun.

Fun for both the adults and the Scouts.

All the best Troops I know have a team of adults who get along well and are team players.

Today the guys who were my ASM's are still people that I see as being my best friends.

I was never happy with a large "Adult Leadership Team". (Not that I ever had one!)

The guys who worked with me, were all super guys.

Pete was the Troop QM. He was the Father of a couple of Scouts. He joined the Troop when his kids joined Cub Scouts, was there all the way through the time they were Scouts and for about five years after they aged out. He quit the Troop when he retired and moved from the area.

Fred was the most knowledgeable Scout Skills guy I ever knew. He was a King's Scout. He in the real world was the head lighting Designer for Thorn/EMI. He had for many years been the SM of a Troop. Sadly he wasn't that good with working with younger Lads. The Troop he was with reflected this and folded when a great group of older Scouts all seemed to age out about the same time and with no younger Scouts to replace them it just folded.

Cliff was our youngest Leader, he was really into First Aid. He wasn't the brightest person I ever met, he worked as a butcher. The Scouts really liked him, they seen him as being really cool, he had an ear-ring and was into much of the music and "New-Stuff" That the other adults just weren't.

John was the high tech guy who was into anything to do with light-weight camping, maps, compass, orienteering and that sort of thing.

Graham, had been a ASM in the Troop when I was Venture Scout, he was just a nice guy who was fun to have around, he liked the Scouts and they liked him.

We all were pals outside of Scouting, spending time together.

We all when we were free on a Sunday meet at my Parish club for a few pre-lunch adult beverages and would get together after Troop meetings for a couple and talk about what had gone on.

As a rule the Troop Summer Camp was in August. Sometime soon after we would have our Annual Planning Meeting, with all the ASM's who were able to attend and all of the PLC.

The main item on the agenda was where we would be going for Summer Camp next year.

We would look at what we wanted to do?

One year it was kayaking in Ireland.One year it was hiking in Switzerland, another year it was sailing in the Lake District in England.

This "What we wanted to do" In many ways gave shape to the themes for the coming year.

Once we had the themes in place, coming up with dates for the Troop activities was never that hard.

Trying to avoid clashes with District events was sometimes a real pain. Add to this that we had Scouts who attended six different High Schools and Scouts who belonged to a lot of different religions! This sometimes meant that something had to give and somethings just couldn't be done.

Cliff of course seen the District First Aid Competition as being the main event of his year! John seen the District Orienteering as being the biggie for him.

Sometimes compromises had to be made, with the Scouts having the final word. Even if this meant that the ASM's feeling might be hurt a little.

There were times when some things the Scouts came up with just couldn't be done when they wanted them done, sometimes these things were just moved to another date and sometimes they were put on the back burner for as long as a year.

Sometimes it was seen that the activity was something that the Troop didn't want to do. While maybe a Patrol did, so the Patrol went ahead and planned it with depending on the skill of the P/L help from one of the adults.

I did try and visit or have someone look in when Patrols were doing things as Patrols.

 

No one ever wants to feel that they have someone looking over their shoulder or all the time evaluating how they are doing.

When I was SM the Committee were 101% behind me, even if they did feel at times that I was spending way too much money on equipment.

I had a reputation of maybe moving a little too fast and doing things before I'd really worked out everything.

At the end of the day everything comes down to trust.

The Committee selected me to be the SM.

As SM I knew where the buck stopped!

I seen my role as doing what I could to help provide the best possible program that I could for the Scouts in the Troop and at the same time build a strong foundation for the Lads that would follow.

There were times when the Committee were not 100% behind me.

Like when we stopped having a monthly church parade.

The Troop was not tied to any church, but somehow, someway had at sometime started one Sunday a month going to a church.

The Committee chair attended this church and was on the church council.

Once a month the Scouts in full uniform would toddle off to this church.

The local Boy's Brigade also went to this church.

Me being R/C never really felt any connection to the church and I'll admit my main goal each month was to have more boys show up than the Boys Brigade had.

As the Troop grew we seen a lot of boys who weren't Christian join the Troop, having Hindu, Muslin,Jewish Lads sit through a church service just to feed my ego was silly. So once a month we went to the local hospital which was big (15 Floors) and brought the patients down for the Hospital church service. The Scouts were given the option of attending the church service or the hospital provide a voucher that they could spend in the Hospital Caf while the service went on and then after the service they would wheel the patients back.

At first the committee were not keen on this idea, but after a couple of articles in the local press (The editor had been a patient that the Scout had taken to the church service) They seen it as a good idea.

 

I have a big sign in my office that reads "Fix the Problem and forget about the blame".

Adults working as a team with a Troop should be working as a team to fix whatever the problem might be. Pointing fingers, trying to affix blame, bad mouthing and putting down others not only doesn't work, but is sets a very poor example to the Scouts who we hope will be the leaders that will one day follow us and take care of us when we are old.

Ea.

[moosetracker]

I agree with TwoCubDad.. It is fishy enough to look at what else is going on in the troop for other evidence.. But, what we got now, may just be a truely very religious man, who is having a hard time keeping active adults. That is why I state

>> The thing is someone with training to spot them would need to come in to watch.

[krier32]

I would highly receommend that you sit down with your COR and your Unit Commissioner. The COR has the responsibility to make sure that the unit has all the proper leadership. The UC has the responsibility to work with the Troop to make sure they are abiding by the rules and can also assist the Troop in program planning and adult leader training.

 

Don Krier

COR - Troop/Crew 53

Levittown, PA

Pennsbury District

Bucks County Council

[Gary_Miller]

Twocubdad, no offense taken.

 

I was just stating my experience as an LDS scout leader in working with non-LDS youth in an LDS unit. And your right in that LDS units tend to be exclusive with in their assigned wards, and non-LDS youth tend to attend their local town units. I was just lucky being in the military my LDS ward was exclusively the base housing areas and we had some of the non-LDS youth attend our unit because the base scout troop was having problems.

 

I have also been in areas where the LDS boys attended the Local town unit due to the number of LDS boys in a ward. This happens alot at overseas military bases.

[ScoutNut]

The fact that there are only 5 active youth, and 2 active adults, puts a bit of a different spin on things.

 

The SM feels he must attend his church on Sundays. If there are only the 2 of you camping with the 5 (or less) boys, perhaps he feels that youth protection would not be served to leave some boys at the campsite with you alone. So, to be on the YP safe side, he has everyone accompany him to church.

 

TALK TO YOUR SM.

 

If their are boys who are not comfortable with attending his church you BOTH need to come up with alternates for them. Have you talked to him about a Scouts Own Service? Can one of the other parents (who do not want their son attending the SM's church) attend the campout also, thus leaving enough adult supervision at the campsite for those who do not want to go with the SM? Can the SM attend a later service on his own?

 

If he absolutely must attend his church, with nothing working as a substitute, then perhaps the campout can be ended very early on Sunday so everyone has time to get to their own worship services.

 

You don't know if you don't talk to him.

 

As for your training. The online training is great, and necessary. U of S is also great for additional training. However to be considered by BSA to be fully trained for your position of ASM (which you will need to be in order to take Wood Badge) you also need to take Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills.

 

 

[pictak]

Scoutnut, yes I have taken SLSP and IOLS training. and every other training I hear of, this is why I do not agree with the way the troop is run. As for the boy led troop I brought that up at to the instructor at U of S. He said his troop is only at 8 scouts right now but he still lets them lead and choose what they want to do. This SM will not. Camping in a farmers woods close to SM's church is not a fun campout. How can these scouts draw in others when they never do anything exciting. They are not even attending the spring camporee. And no moose I am not in my 20's I am 57 and have been with the troop for a year or so. I continue to be there waiting for something to happen as far as camping. As I said I am an Eagle, and thinking back to my days in scouting (from cub scout thru boy scouts) if there had been no camping I would not have stayed in, camping in exciting places is what it was all about for me.

[moosetracker]

pictak - I am relieved that you are older. The thought of a young adult, needing to address this issue.. scared me.. It means that you have the maturity to try to reason with the SM, if you want to try that route. You also have the maturity to be taken serious by Cor/UC/District, whatever. (As stated I was not sure, I was just lead to that belief by your statement that is what is typical of the 3-4 Eagles we have that have remained involved in our troop after becoming 18.)

 

The fact that he is camping in farmers woods and avoiding public places and also avoiding the public events with the district / Council.. (ie. very isolated).. Does nothing to make me feel better about the situation though..

 

But, it seems I am seeing more eerie warning signs over what this checklist of problems is adding up to in this troop then others on this forum though. I do fear I get more upset about situations like this due to my own personal experiences.

 

You really need to assess the situation for yourself. You should definately do something to make others aware of what is going on and not just turn a blind eye and walk away. But, what you are seeing and what you interpret by what you are seeing, you seemed trained and mature enough to make an intelligent call and decide how you want to address this..