ASM

[pictak]

I have kind of a problem I could use help with. I am a leader at a local B.S.A. troop. The SM at this troop does all the planning of outings, boys have very little input. Not much of a boy lead troop. Also SM insists all scouts go to church on sunday during campouts. Some of the boys are not of his faith and some do not attend church at home but are made to go during campouts. I myself am a firm beliver in our Lord but this is driving kids out and I do not feel I can do anything. I am an Eagle scout myself and think we should not force one certin religion on these kids. There is a diffrence between Reverent and force. Any help out there on this one.

[ScoutNut]

Talk to your COR. Youth can/should not be FORCED to participate in religious activities when they are not members of that religion.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I think as an ASM your job is to support the SM or to look elsewhere for your volunteer time, eh? A scout is trustworthy and loyal and all that.

 

Yeh don't say who the sponsor is for your unit. It's not unusual for a unit that is sponsored by a church to take the lads to services on a Sunday. And often two-deep and other logistics means that everybody has to go. A Scout is Reverent. Even if you're not a member of that church, you joined their program, so yeh attend just to be supportive of 'em. Think of it a bit like going to the wedding of a friend from work. Yeh might not be a member of his/her church, but yeh go anyway in order to support your friend.

 

Of course if you're not a church-sponsored unit and this is just da SM's "thing", then it's up to the unit's sponsor to do somethin' if they don't like it, not you. In that case, somebody else better be ready to be Scoutmaster.

 

Beavah

 

[pictak]

Yes the troop is at a church but it is not the church they are made to go to. Why not just a service on sunday at the campsite.

[Twocubdad]

Have you discussed your concerns with the SM? What did he say?

 

Have you both trained to position? Does the SM understand the youth led method? Is he familiar with a Scouts' Own service? Does he not understand, or does he just choose to do things differently?

 

Regarding church services, what is the position of your chartered organization? If you are a church-sponsored unit and the church wants the boys at their services, that is their call to make.

[The Blancmange]

This seems pretty clear:

 

Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1

 

gIn no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faith be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church.h

 

From: http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp

 

[Twocubdad]

However, units may elect to limit membership to members of a particular faith. While it doesn't sound like that's the situation here, that's why I asked the question the way I did.

[ScoutNut]

2cub - What you stated was -

 

>>"If you are a church-sponsored unit and the church wants the boys at their services, that is their call to make.">"Members who do not belong to a units religious chartered organization shall not be required to participate

in its religious activities."

[rdclements]

Beaver's observation about loyalty to the SM is helpful to remember because these situations get personal very quickly. I agree with Nut, that a little chat with the SM is needed in order to determine if he understands that he is out of bounds. If that doesn't wake him up, then the COR/head needs to join the conversation so that it is clear what direction the church wants this to go.

 

My church is also my CO, and would not permit this behavior. You need to get a clear determination that the unit leaders are acting in accordance with the CO mission.

[Twocubdad]

Been to a LDS troop meeting lately? How about the local Catholic Camporee?

 

A chartered organization is fully within it's charter and the DRP if, at the outset, they say, "We are a (Christian/Jewish/Bhuddist/Druid/Rastafarian)organization and wish to limit membership in our units to Scouts of our faith. We expect our Scouts and leaders to follow the tenents of our faith, including attendance at services when appropriate." No one is forced to join that unit, but if you do so, you must adhere to the CO's wishes. It is also incumbent upon the CO to communicate that policy to perspective members.

 

I don't know if this is the situation in pictak's unit or not. I rather doubt it. But I hold out the possibility that perhaps the unit was at one time a sectarian troop, but over the years has gotten away from that policy. Maybe now the SM is trying to redirect the unit and is just going about it poorly. More than likely he's just a strong-headed, my-way-or-the-highway kind of guy. I don't know which is why I ask.

 

Look, I'm the LAST guy to force a Scout to attend a service contrary to his own faith. I got sideways with a camp director a couple years ago because the camp chaplain was a Evangelical Christian who insisted all his services and even graces before meals would be rather forcefully Christian. I spend a good bit of time working with our troop's Chaplain's Aide to make sure he understands that our Scouts' Own Services are inter-faith. In a strongly Bible-belt area (that is, New Testament Bible-belt area) we had a Jewish Chaplain's Aide a year or so ago. The fellow did a great job and I encouraged him to use Hebrew prayers from time to time, most of which work nicely in a Scout's Own service. Of course my Southern-Baptist district executive tells me I'm going to hell, but that's my cross to bear.

 

But while I try diligently to make sure our troop is welcoming to our Scouts of different faith, I will just as strongly support another troop's right to practice their own faith within their unit, if that's what they choose to do.

[Gary_Miller]

2cubdad, as a LDS scout leader who has had non-LDS youth in the troop. I can assure you we have the up most respect for youth of other faiths. While I encourage youth to attend church services it is never forced on anyone. I expect the youth to have respect for each others faith. And while we pray at the opening and closing of our meetings and before traveling, I have never met anyone who has had a problem with praying.

 

As for pictak's problem. As an ASM I would first discuss my concern with the SM and if he still insits on forcing the boys to go then I would go to the Committee and discuss it at length with them. While it's important for an ASM to support the SM and for them to work togeather. The ASM Loyalty is first to the CO and the youth. This SM is in need of some training or maybe needing replaced.

[Twocubdad]

Please don't take offense, Gary. I have in no way suggested you don't respect other faiths; I'm simply saying you have a right to keep your own.

 

My experience with the LDS units in my area is that they tend to be fairly exclusively LDS and and are very closely associated with their local wards. Maybe that's different in other parts of the country. Were I to join a LDS unit here I would expect to hear prayers in keeping with the LDS Church and to follow other practices and tradtions of the church. If I object to that, I would find another unit.

 

I am only saying that is an acceptable way to operate a unit.

[Jeffrey H]

In my Troop, our Scout's Own services are non-denominational Christian in content. We do not do inter-faith services because there is not that need in our Troop. The Scouts and Adults with our Troop are professing Christians (Protestant and Catholic) or they identify with Christianity. We encourage attendance, but never force anyone to attend and maintain the upmost respect for their decision. However, most Scouts and Scouters attend and they appreciate taking time out to practice the 12th point of the Scout Law.

 

I avoid inter-faith services (interfaith = combining different religions) because they do not allow me to worship God as my conscience dictates. I appreciate it when others do not force me to attend those type of services. Likewise, I don't force anyone to attend Christian services.

[moosetracker]

I understand the "force" is not a good thing unless you limit the unit's membership to being a member of that denomination.

 

Aside from that. I think the fact that the SM is not even the same denomination of the CO, would be a problem to the CO..

 

I also have a question. Are the boys limited to what events they can choose based on the SM's need to be near a church of his denomination? I mean what if they choose an outing way in the middle of no where's land, that you need to hike into. Would the SM not allow them to go?

 

 

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

I've got some questions.

 

You say the church is chartered by a church but that is not the church the Scouts are taken to at campouts - by that do you mean the denomination of the chartering organization is different from the denomination of the church the Scouts are brought to (ie - Methodist charter, Lutheran church)?

 

Are they being brought to the same church (by that I mean building) every Sunday and if so, how does that work - you stop on the way home or you just camp at the same place all the time?

 

Is there a reason the SM won't do a Scout's Own on Sunday mornings at the camp site?

 

Does the chartering organization know the Scoutmaster is bringing the Scouts to church on Sunday mornings? Is it at their request? Do they know it's a different denomination (if that is the case)?

 

Most importantly, what do the Parents of the Scouts think? Are the ones that don't like it just taking their sons out of the program? Are there parents who are bothered by it and just don't want to rock the boat? Have the parents given express permission to the Scoutmaster to bring their children to a church that may not be their own?

 

If I were a parent of one of those Scouts, the Scoutmaster would be facing some pretty tough questions - expecially if I happened to be a member of the Chartering Organization.