Suspension/Probation

[Twocubdad]

Time to call a meeting of the Association of Scout Scholars, Hacks, Oracles, Lawyers and Elitists

 

How do you define Suspension and Probation?

 

Suspension seems pretty clear -- not permitted to participate in Scout functions. Even the goofball daffynition of "Active" allows that a Scout must not be under suspension from the unit for discipliary reasons. But if a Scout is suspended from the troop, does that suspension affect his participation in his Jamboree troop or Philmont crew? How about service as a Den Chief. What about Scouts who have dual registration with a Venture Crew?

 

But what about probation? Is probation even a legitimate concept within a unit? I take it to mean, "if you do anything else bad then you're REALLY going to be in trouble." But can we be more precise? Probation may mean restrictions on participation like no campouts or a parent must attend campouts. Can a Scout continue to complete requirements while on probation? Can he advance? Can he hold positions of responsibility? I suppose it could be a mix, depending on the situation. If a kid is on probation for something rather serious, but then does something fairly minor, how do you then judge the minor act? Can a single straw break the camel's back?

 

Part of my interest is as a Scoutmaster looking at advancement and the Scout Spirit. If a boy is suspended for a fairly gross violation of the Oath or Law, returns to the troop and fairly quickly requests a Scoutmaster conference and/or Board of Review to advance, how do you fairly judge Scout Spirit?

 

Personally, I would like to see a little distance between the bad behavior and evaluating the boy's adherence to the Oath and Law. But I would also like some objective guidance from the troop committee.

 

Thoughts?

 

As an example, let's agree a kid has done something for which a one -month suspension from the troop is warranted.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[bbender]

Technically (and I speak both as a law talkin' guy and one who's seen lots of Law & Order), "probation" is a criminal justice term for a punishment in lieu of imprisonment, namely a supervised (and conditioned) freedom. Probably not the right term in the Scout context (since it is a criminal justice term and carries that rough edge) for this purpose, though for a very serious act it could be appropriate. If a Scout, on account of a violation, is allowed to continue to participate, I would tend to use terms like "on notice", or "warned", that another violation will result in a further imposition (possibly suspension of privileges). In any event, needs to be clear, like "one more strike and you're out".

 

Suspension, on the other hand, would be more serious than the warning or supervised participation. But then, it can also be crafted to fit the circumstances: for example, perhaps not suspended from "duties" (e.g., work as a den chief, at a service project, equipment cleaning day), but suspended from "privileges" (e.g., campout, high adventure). I would imagine that suspension might also include a period of time before a passing mark on "Scout Spirit" can be issued, as that requirement is a subjective one, to be demonstrated "in your everyday life". After some period of time, the past will be past, and that requirement can be passed.

 

Technically, the "active" requirement includes, I think (at least in one part of the scouting.org website) a concept of not being "dismissed" from the unit. I suppose "suspension" would be a "temporary" and/or "partial" dismissal.

 

[jhankins]

Thanks for asking this today. I'm heading to a unit tonight that is torn between kicking a boy out for gross violations of the Scout Oath and Law, or allow the boy to stay in the unit.

 

This might bring up a new line of discussion the parties are not seeing.

[CalicoPenn]

I'm not sure if I'm a scholar, a hack or an oracle. I suppose we're about to find out.

 

Probation - I don't really care for the use of probation. Either a Scout has done something egregrious enough to be suspended or he hasn't. If what has been done doesn't merit suspension, then a Scoutmaster's conference or a form of proper discipline should be immediate with no further consequence (unless a pattern is developing). Too often, a Scout will do something stupid at an outing, but not serious enough to warrant suspension, will be disciplined, then some other adults will chime in and demand some kind of further retribution in the form of a double-secret probationary status. Such after the fact retribution has no place in Scouting - it's just a power trip by some adults. Otherwise, probation just seems to me to be a way for adult leaders to express displeasure at a serious breech without willing to stand up and administer a suspension as warranted - it speaks volumes about the character and courage of the adult leaders (A Scout is Brave but apparently that doesn't need to apply to adults). (Of course, I'm sure I'll get a mild tongue lashing from some for waying this - especially of the "let's not judge adults who are doing their best variety - heard it, don't disagree, but I still hold the above opinion).

 

As for suspension - if a Troop is suspending a Scout, he's being suspended from the Troop - not from Scouting. If Philmont Crew or Jamboree Troop is not a Troop funtion, there is nothing to keep the Scout from continuing to particpate in those activities. If a Scout has a dual registration with a Venture Crew, the Troop suspending has no effect on his participation with the Crew. Of course, I imagine that the Troop may make the suspension known to the leaders of the other activities, but it is up to those leaders to decide if they will also suspend the Scout. I know if I were the Venture Crew Advisor, or Jamboree or Philmont adult leader, I doubt I would honor the Troop's suspension in my own unit/activity, unless the suspension had something to do with a serious breech of safe scouting (in all it's meaning). To my way of thinking, the suspension is between the Troop and the Scout, for behavior at the Troop level, and has no bearing on his participation elesewhere. By the same token, I wouldn't expect the Troop to honor a suspension if the Venture Crew suspended him. I might have a Scoutmasters (Advisors) conference with the Scout to let him know I know what's going on, but that's about as far as I'd go.

 

Den Chief - interesting twist - If he's going for rank through the Troop and is using Den Chief, then I wouldn't give him credit for POR time served during the suspension - but I also wouldn't stop him from serving - he just needs to know that this month is on him, and not part of his POR time. If he's truly repentant, and wants to return, I think he'd still serve as a Den Chief during that month without credit, as a way to prove his sincerity (of course, I may be projecting, or being optimistic).

 

Coming back right away for a BOR? I might counsel the lad to give it a couple months.

[jhankins]

If the offense was egregious enough, shouldn't you notify council? In the current situation I am facing, I'm leaving that up to the CR and SM, but I could see the boy being asked not to return.

[acco40]

Id go with double secret probation. It works like a charm.

[evmori]

Fat drunk and stupid is now way to go through life son

[Twocubdad]

Interesting conversation thusfar. Thank you.

 

If probation were as you describe, Calico, I, too, would have a problem with it.

 

In five years I can think of three boys who have been placed on probation. In two cases, the probationary period followed a period of suspension. In every case the Scout was given a letter explaining the suspension and probation, with definite end dates for each. So I don't think we're shying away from dealing with the behaviors head-on.

 

The problem has been the letters just said "you'll be on probation until (date)" but we've never really explained what that means. My current situation is that a boy who was on probation turned around and did something similar, so now he's been suspended and will, again, be on probation when he returns.

 

Rather than criminal probation, I'm thinking more in terms of academic probation. "You've got a semester to improve your grades or your out." I've never had a Scout suspended or placed on probation that hasn't had a string of mis-behaviors or attitude issues leading up to the final straw. The mis-behaviors played out over a period of time and it seems reasonable that a Scout demonstrate good behaviors over a period of time. Our standard is to live the Scout Oath and Law in your everyday life. It takes time to demonstrate that -- either good or bad.

 

[Beavah]

Rather than criminal probation, I'm thinking more in terms of academic probation.

 

Yah, I think that's a better way of thinkin'.

 

Probation to my mind is somethin' that comes after suspension. You've done somethin' serious which might merit getting kicked out, but there were some mitigating circumstances or genuine, deep contrition that call for a less severe response. So you're suspended for a period of time, and then when yeh come back the expectation is that if any similar or related serious behavior issue happens there won't be any question, second chance or forgiveness, you'll just be asked to leave.

 

For example, let's take da miscreants from last month's thread about tryin' to get the first year lad to drink urine. To my mind, the older scout instigators should perhaps have just been removed, eh? But the younger lad who was the pressured go-between who made a poor choice but then recanted and came clean might merit a suspension for a bit, with an apology to everyone and some service time to come back. And then probation for a while of the sort "any other mean act toward younger scouts and you'll be shown the door at once." Or, if yeh decided the older fellows really deserved a reprieve, same deal.

 

Yeh can only make such a decision for your own unit, eh? Even an expulsion doesn't remove the lad's BSA registration. But I reckon it's only fair to fellow adult leaders that yeh let the contingent leaders / crew leaders / lodge know what happened so that they can make their own call on the issue.

 

Beavah

 

[frank10]

Probation need not be negative. Rather than thinking in terms of punishment, think of it as a chance for the scout to get back on track AND to get all the support he needs for doing it. Kinda a formal "we need to talk". Could be as simple as a SM conference before and after each event to review how things are going... "Are things still cool?", "Have you been working better with the SPL and PL?", "Do you see the results of keeping your hands to your self?", "How can we make this work" and even "I'm proud of the way you kept your cool at lunch, Bob sure was in your face but you let it go."

It might also include an extra task or two. But mostly it should be a chance for him to come back to the unit/patrol.

If the scout completes the probation, what ever the original offense is now in the past and never to be mentioned again. Sure beats sending him home for two months to stew about it and then let him come back where his choices are to crawl back or to come back fighting.

 

Probation should be a way of saying "you screwed up but we can fix it together".

[jhankins]

Well, after tonight, suspension has 2 levels to me. 1 from the troop, and one from Scouting in general.

 

Youth protection issues guarantee a one-way trip out the door of scouting.

[Gunny2862]

Good discussion.

But, I see probation as the Criminal side of it but as it works around here(without the paid part of the supervision).

 

IF an event warranted some kind of response either including or just short of suspension, then probation or being "on notice" that one's leeway has just evaporated and the next incident will result in a stronger response, may be just the ticket.

 

I.E. the Scout who is a first year, has impulse control problems, and didn't actually strike anyone but only by the grace of God and a(not normally intimidating) Eagle who halted the interaction.

What to do? Suspend him when he didn't complete an action? Kick him out as a danger to others? Or notify him and his parents that no matter what else he gets away with at home or elsewhere that as a Scout there is a higher level of self-control required and that on the next occurrence he WILL, be suspended or removed from the Troop depending on the offense. That maybe for the first couple of meetings/outings a Parent will be required and then we'll graduate down from that but he won't have regained the leeway yet? That a couple of meetings/outings later with demonstrable improvement he will be back on solid ground.

 

I wouldn't suspend or recommend suspension of credit for activities or advancement for more than a month based on a Probation, I would on a probably the full term of a Suspension.

 

Prison is about Punishment and Correction, Probation is supposed to be about Correction and Re-integration.

[John-in-KC]

Gunny wrote:

 

"Prison is about Punishment and Correction, Probation is supposed to be about Correction and Re-integration. "

 

AND SCOUTING IS ABOUT EDUCATION OF OUR NEXT GENERATION. (Call it emphasis, call it shouting. The thought matters).

 

Removing a youth member from activities (vice a single event) should be the next to final level of progressive discipline. The final level is the Chartered Partner removing a youth member: Informing the family and the Council the youth is no longer a member of Pack/Troop/Team/Crew NNN, and no longer welcome at their meetings/events.

 

To me, given unit leaders (youth and adult) have determined the facts of an incident, the options for layers of action should look like:

 

- Peer leadership works with the Scout (PL/TG/SPL)

- Scoutmaster has Scoutmaster conference with Scout. This is the breakpoint between discussion and action, imo.

- Scoutmaster has Scoutmaster conference, followed by the Troop Committee has a non-advancement Board of Review with the Scout. This allows the "program feedback" function of the Committee to work, and allows a "bought-in" decision. If the SM involves the Troop Committee, then there should be consequences for the Scout.

 

BTW, to me, if we're at the point where the SM is having a conference with the Scout about behavior, there bloody well better be leader/parental contact. If Mom and Dad are not buying in that the Scout is not honoring his Oath and Law, then I can promise that bigger problems are but a matter of time away.

 

My thoughts.