Tour Permits

[ScoutNut]

That is what happens when trainers do not follow a syllabus and spread Scouting rumor.

 

Remember, trainers are human, and subject to error also.

 

As long as you plan on getting a tour permit for every Pack activity, then what is the problem? Simply tell your leaders that the CO, and the Pack, REQUIRE that a tour permit be filled out for everything - period. No debate is necessary, and it does not matter what the council/district's stance is.

 

 

[Scouterclaude]

Scoutnut, not to argumenative but it is requires,

 

BSA Rules and Policies:

Bold type throughout the Guide to Safe Scouting denotes BSA rules and policies.

 

If you look at the GTSS Tour Permits and the launguage I quoted is in bold print thus making it a rule and policy.

 

If in fact it was only a tool to prepair a safe outing then why has National gone to the trouble of putting it in bold print in the GTSS? Words do have meenings and legal interpritations also have an impact on insurance claims. I deal everyday with contracts, and specifications and know quite well the meening of the written word and its impact on litigation. If it is spelled out in the specs it doesn't matter what your interpritation might be. It is what it is. The "but I thought" defence doesn't quite hold water in court, if it says a nut is a nut then guess what it's a nut.

[Scouterclaude]

Sorry Scoutnut, my last post should have been addressed to AlFansome. I will be the first to admit my screw up many as they are.

[Scoutfish]

Yeah, that's the ideal thing...fill one out no matter what.

 

We fill one out for a family pack campout on an approved site and less than 20 minutes(28 miles) from our home base.

 

Do we have to?

 

It really doesn't matter because we are gonna fill it out anyways.Even if it isn't required, it does act as a "planning list" of who is the Baloo trained, our 2 deep. out YTP, and so on and so an. It makes sure we have everything in place before we go.

 

Think of it as a pre flight check list...after years of flying, you know what needs to be what. That list just puts the final crosses on the "T's" and dots the "I's".

[AlFansome]

Scouterclaude-

The basic fact still remains that if do your appropriate preparation and do everything that's required by a Tour Permit (and yet don't actually pull the permit), you are still covered by insurance. Not pulling a permit doesn't change that. Likewise, if your Council (not a trainer) says directly that you don't need a Tour Permit for such-and-such outing, then you also don't need a tour permit in order to be protected.

 

For better or worse, right or wrong, there are lots of shades of gray in this area and BSA has yet to make it explicity clear when a permit is needed and what the repercussions are (or could be) if you don't pull one.

 

If you feel that this is an issue and wish to convince the leaders in your Pack to adopt a policy that Tour Permits are alwayws required, then that's a good thing IMHO.

 

 

 

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Most BSA units do not file for a tour permit. I am involved with a number of units and everytime I mention tour permit they look at me side ways.

 

What I do is every time I leave the Charter Organization I file for one. It takes a couple of minutes and I am covered.

 

Don't make a bigger deal than it really is. I submit 20 days or so in advance. You must submit 14 days in advance on line.

[Scouterclaude]

My main concern isn't my unit because we do pull a permit but is the misinformation that may be delivered at training. All the information I have seen on BSA insurace states it is a policy thru an insurance company and not directly funded by the BSA. That being said I sure would hate to be the poor individual or CO that thought they were doing right by not filling a permit, have a serious accident and be sued only to find out the insurace company found a loop hole to deny the claim because the GTSS says you have to do so.

[jhankins]

A pack on my district was leaving town with a tour permit filed. They were in uniform, had their permission slips, tour permit, G2SS, and were involved in an accident where one of the boys and a leader was injured.

 

The tour permit was short a boy and a leader that would be on the tour. Once out of pocket expenses were submitted to the insurance company, it was brought to the District committee's attention that oops -- the unit's insurance was null because the boy in the accident was the boy left off the permit.

 

While they couldn't actually tell that, the form wasn't filled out correctly, and the CO ended up paying for the medical expenses.

 

It's not that hard to fill these out, why balk at it?

[ScoutNut]

Contact your council insurance person to find out what the accurate information is.

 

Contact your Council Training Chair with the correct info and let him/her know what the trainers have been saying.

 

If you don't believe/like what you have been told by your council, then I would simply let it go. If your council is not troubled, why are you?

 

Just keep filing the Tour Permits so your unit will be covered for any circumstances, and let the rest go. There is not a whole lot you can do.

 

[ASM162]

The tour permit was short a boy and a leader that would be on the tour. Once out of pocket expenses were submitted to the insurance company, it was brought to the District committee's attention that oops -- the unit's insurance was null because the boy in the accident was the boy left off the permit.

 

While they couldn't actually tell that, the form wasn't filled out correctly, and the CO ended up paying for the medical expenses.

 

This just seems like dirty pool to me.

How did the District Committee determine that the injured party was actually the one left off of the Tour Permit?

I would think that many units have found themselves in this type of situation where the Tour Permit is not accurate as far as a total head count is concerned.

There are instances when a boy gets sick the day of departure, and can't make the outing. There are also instances where Johnny changes his plans and wants to go on the outing now, because his baseball game got cancelled.

In either case, the TP that was submitted is not accurate. Does it really have to be? I mean, if the transportation requirements are still adequate, and things like 2 deep leadership, Safe Swim Defense/ Safety Afloat, Weather hazards, etc are still met, doesa it really matter if the tour permit says 15 boys, but 14 or 16 actually make the trip?

Also, what if one of the drivers has to use a different vehicle than what was listed on the tour permit? (i.e vehicle being repaired).

I mean, as long as there are enough seat belts, and driver has current and adequate insurance on said vehicle, does this pose a problem?

Many things can change between the time that the tour permit is filed and when you are leaving for the outing.

I couldn't imagine cancelling an outing just because of an inaccurate Tour Permit.

 

[Scouterclaude]

When I fill out a permit I aways add extra scouts to cover those who decide to go afterall. As far as drivers, we have all new scout parents fill out a form which includes all their cars, driver licence info. and insurance info., which is then included in our master list. I attach the master list to the permit when I turn it in and I also have a copy of that list stamped as received and staple it to the botton half of the permit. Cover all the bases!!!!

[reeddma]

Okay, I'll bite...

 

Where is the requirement when submitting a tour permit that you must include a list of all scouts and adults participating? I've been doing them for years and there is no place on the form that asks for a list of names - only numbers.

 

Additionally, this past fall the National Capital Area Council only requires a local tour permit if you're going more than 50 miles from "home".

 

sm1983bsa

[Scouterclaude]

The only place I know where names are listed is under the transpotation section where you list who is driving and all the required information on the car and so on. Maybe only 10 scouts were listed on the permit and more showed up making the permit incorrect. I don't know the exact details of the incident. My point has always been insurance companies will try and find a way to deny the claim if the can so make sure all your ducks are in a row. It might also be that the car the scout and parent that were injured wasn't listed on the permit. Don't know.

[Oak Tree]

AlFansome says "The basic fact still remains that if do your appropriate preparation and do everything that's required by a Tour Permit (and yet don't actually pull the permit), you are still covered by insurance."

 

Why do you think you are required to do all of that to be covered by insurance? I've never seen that stated. Beavah keeps saying that insurance covers you whether you follow the rules or not - and that certainly matches my experience with all of my other insurance. A lot of councils have exactly the same wording on their sites: "There is no coverage for those who commit intentional or criminal acts." But other than that, liability pretty much covers you. Have you seen an actual policy? I may ask to see one, just to convince myself.

[AlFansome]

Oak Tree-

My point was that if you don't pull a permit, you're still covered. Whether or not you do the proper prep and whether or not you pull a permit doesn't affect the coverage which will still be in force, as you say.

 

Guess it didn't come across clearly when I typed it.