Tour Permits

[Scouterclaude]

I have a question on tour permits and cant seem to get a definitive answer. If you refer to the Guide To Safe Scouting it states If a unit plans a trip within 500 miles of the home base, it is important that the unit obtain a local tour permit. and Most short, in-town den trips of a few hours do not require a tour permit; however, it is recommended that dens obtain permission slips from parents.. Please define what Home Base means to you and if in fact any time your Pack goes anywhere other than you current meeting location you in fact need a Tour Permit. The insurance information provided on my Councils web page states A tour permit or a council short-term camping permit is required when units travel overnight or outside their district. The council should establish more specific guidelines setting forth when a local council tour permit is required. But if you ask our Council people you will get several different versions and I can not find it anywhere in writing. It seems that the insurance information is in direct violation of the GTSS. Something as important as Tour Permits should have a more definitive answer than what I am getting. I have always held when in doubt fill it out but at a training I attended this weekend they stated dont worry about tour permits unless you leave your councils area. My wife says I am very anal about crossing the Ts and dotting the Is and I might be but I think this is a very important issue. What are your ideas?

[jhankins]

In my council, we teach Home Base being: anything away from your normal CO's provided meeting place. For us, that's the school where we hold pack meetings.

 

Still, our council asks for den trips to have tour permits, as a way of maintaining a habit of filling one out. The tour permit also serves as a reminder of that activity for next year's planning conference.

 

I would rather err on the side of caution for litigation purposes: protecting the leaders and the CO, and providing that guarantee of insurance to the families by filling it out.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Home base could be your meeting place..wether a specific building, a public area, or even your town.

 

While BSA has set and established pretty much all the rules and guidelines...local councils may stiffen SOME requirements as they see fit or feel the need to do.

Just realize this isn't about control so much as implimenting extra safety precautions for the kids as well as adult leaders.

 

 

 

WEll, not really. G2SS sets the minimum standards. Insurance is what kicks in when something happens despite following G2SS.

[Scoutfish]

Another thing to consider...

 

Filling out a tour permit when it's not needed is alot better than not filling one out when you should have.

 

If nothing else, filling out the tour permit also serves as a pre trip check list too. You know you have the right people in place when filling it out.

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

The rule was changed some time back to be for travel anywhere outside of your district. Tour permits are not required for attendance at district and council events, wherever held. In essence, the person responsible for said event is filing a tour permit for all attending.

[jhankins]

We still require tour permits for district and council events, and we check them at registration time. Travel still isn't covered to an event without a tour permit.

 

The rules are so vague, when in doubt -- fill it out.

[Scouterclaude]

I am in complete agreement with all of the above, what bothers me is when people who are leading the training sessions tell all the new leaders they don't have to worry about it as lone as they are in council's boundary. If something was to occur these people could be left high and dry.

[ScoutNut]

Local Tour Permits are one of the things that National has given local councils discretion on. The basic G2SS standard is less than 500 miles from home base (unit/den meeting place). However,Councils can adapt that to fit their own circumstances.

 

Some councils require a Local Tour Permit for EVERY trip outside of the meeting place.

 

Some councils require one for any trip outside of the town your meeting place is in.

 

Some councils require one for any trip outside of your district boundaries.

 

Some councils require one for any trip outside your council boundaries.

 

Some councils require one for all council/district events,including summer camps. Some councils do not.

 

As you can see, there is a LOT of variation. Your best bet is to contact the person in your council offices whose job it is to approve Local Tour Permits, and ask them.

 

Or, just fill one out for every trip. With online Tour Permits, this is fairly painless.

 

Edited to comment on your "high and dry" comment. NO, even if a den/unit failed to fill out a Local Tour Permit, they are NOT left "high and dry". As long as it is a Scouting activity, tour permit or not, BSA insurance would still be in effect.

 

This is another, long proliferated, Urban Scouting Legend.

(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

[AlFansome]

"high and dry"? Not really.

 

As I understand it, a Local Tour Permit (when required by Council) is a tool that is used to make sure that the tour leaders are following BSA policies and guidelines with regard to training, GTSS, and other safety items as listed on the Tour Permit.

 

If you get a Tour Permit, then you are assured (and Council has confirmed) that you have followed guidelines as prescribed by the BSA and/or your Council.

 

However, if you do NOT get a Tour Permit, yet still DO follow all the guidelines, then (from an insurance perspective) not much changes. Insurance coverage remains in full effect and your leaders are covered, since the Tour Permit is merely a tool to confirm that you've followed the guidelines, not a document that is required for insurance purposes. (If anyone can find something to the contrary on National's site or documentation, please contradict me, as I've never seen anything to that effect.)

 

Now, if something were to happen on the outing, and you followed the guidelines on the Tour Permit, but you did not get the Tour Permit, you're still covered by insurance, but would certainly get a little more scrutiny that if you had dotted the i's and crossed the t's and gotten the tour permit ahead of time.

 

 

FWIW, in our Council, if I try to get a tour permit for a den outing to a local fire station, I get the evil eye from the secretary at council for wasting her time. Typically, it's for out-of-council or overnight events or anything that would involve any sort of non-field trip experience (hike, service project, etc..). Even then, I've never been able to get a definitive answer either way from Council...we just try to avoid the evil eye!

 

 

[Scouterclaude]

correct me if I'm wrong but if it is in GTSS then that is the law, correct? It clearly state any trip outside of your home base. I didn't think local councils could alter the GTSS. As far as getting an answer from council good luck with that one, if they don't put it in writing then you can't hold them to it. As far as insurance companies, they look for any excuse to get out of paying.

[John-in-KC]

I'm gonna shout:

 

UNIT EVENT PLANNING IS A PROCESS.

 

The request for a tour permit is the culmination of that process. It walks unit leaders down a trail of checkpoints: Are my drivers all licensed? Is their insurance current? Are we travelling an appropriate distance? Do we have two-deep leadership on the event? Have we looked at/complied with Safe Swim Defense/Safety Afloat if we're doing aquatics?

 

That list goes on and on.

 

Why do we do it? Planning aids event safety and fun!

 

Talk to your own Council about the filing rules. Each Council is a little bit different. Do the process for every event, until is is completely and routinely part of your planning. It's not a burden then.

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

Scouterclaude,

 

What they apparently are doing is let the local councils decide what constitutes "home base". And if you think getting an answer out of your council is difficult, you don't even want to tackle the nightmare that it is trying to get one out of National. Not making a decision is one of the biggest decisions that they seem to be able to make.

 

What does your District Executive say is the policy on local tour permits in your council? That's the guidance I would follow until his successor tells you something different!

[Scoutfish]

Scouterclaude,

 

You are WRONG...ISH

 

You yourself qouted G2SS:

 

"...Most short, in-town den trips of a few hours do not require a tour permit; however, it is recommended that dens obtain permission slips from parents.. Please define what Home Base means to you and if in fact any time your Pack goes anywhere other than you current meeting location you in fact need a Tour Permit.">>>

 

BUT G2SS says :>>> in-town den trips of a few hours ( and naturally less ) do not require a tour permit;">>> NOT anything outside home base.

 

So the question begs...how big is your town? My town... don't blink if you are doing 60mph or you will miss half of it. The next town over....takes you an hour just to get through it.

 

So maybe in my town,I can drive 3 towns over / still be within a couple hours of my home base , no permit , right?

 

Maybe in your town, you can drive for 3 hours and still be in one police district.And still need a permit for a local area, no?

 

again, RECOMMENDED, not required.

 

Now, If I am going within 500 miles.....I might still be out of state as I cross that line at 250-300 miles.

 

And I will have permission slips anyways if for no other reason,I have a head count and a good idea of how many scouts to plan for, worry about feeding and misc supplies, correct number of adults, etc...

 

(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[Scouterclaude]

Maybe I need to be more specific, I am referring to a Pack event not a den event. GTSS references a den trip not needing a tour permit, but it's reference to a "Unit" needing one is quite clear. And as far as the need to yell, yelling is only required when you can't make your point on the facts and need to overpower your opponent with noise. I do insist our Pack fill out a Permit for everything but when new leaders go to training and are told it isn't required it makes it very difficult to enforce the policy. "If a trainer said it was ok then it must be".

[AlFansome]

 

Scouterclaude-

The GTSS does not require a Tour Permit for a unit outing. It says that it's "important". It does not say "required", "mandatory", or "necessary".

 

Why is it "important"? So that your Unit leadership follows the process and dots its i's and crosses its t's, as I've described before.

 

It would be nice if there were more specific guidelines from Council, National or both, but unfortunately, that's not the case.

 

You as a unit leader are more than welcome to insist on Tour Permits for each and every outing and make it a Pack policy, since it's a vital part of planning a safe outing. However, the trainer was accurate in saying that they are not specifically required (unless your Council or your Unit does have such a policy in place).