Appropriate discipline for disrespect

[evmori]

Is this ever going to end? This has been going on for almost a year! Why do you continue? The time to move on is long past!

[John-in-KC]

I am with Beavah, twocubdad, and Ed.

 

All of us have a finite supply of emotional energy. Spend it on the good things.

 

It's time to cut your losses and leave, once and for all.

[pchadbo]

Does "DITTO" count as a reply?

[onevoice]

If I hadn't seen similar things before, I would think this whole episode is a joke, but unfortunately it happens all too often. Mouthy kid gets in trouble, non-present parents can't come pick up their troubled angel because they "have plans", little angel proceeds to lie about the details to parents, they are "livid" but really don't do anything, drama parent says everyone is out to get their angel, and continue to blame everyone else for their problem child.

 

Now drama momma wants to rejoin. I would lay odds that the troop will pay for them to go to another unit.

 

Don't expect volunteers to raise your problem child. If you REALLY cared, you would join up and go on the outings instead of crying about how your angel is being treated.

[Lisabob]

Oh now hold the fort here. Let's just take a moment before the thrashing continues. From what I read, this mom isn't so far out of line as all that. She is trying to make a situation work for her other kids. That's a pretty typical parental response.

 

My guess is that it probably WON'T work given past history and I am more or less in agreement that it would probably be better for all if the family moved to a different troop. But that is much easier to see (and say) being on the outside. I know that my family tried for a long time to "make things work" with a troop that wasn't a good fit for my son. Partly it was a sense of loyalty, maybe partly our stubborn natures, maybe partly that we wanted to believe that (what we saw as) reason and common sense would prevail, and maybe partly that you just can't see clearly when you are in the thick of things. It took a really ugly incident and blow-ups among adults that spilled over to some nasty adult comments on my son's facebook page, before we really saw clearly that this was beyond the pale and not fixable. At that point, I'd have gladly let my son quit scouting entirely, but thankfully he had formed a relationship with the SM of another (not so nearby) troop via Jambo. He moved to that troop and scouting has become fun for him again. I should note that his new troop is a longer drive for us - and that's a significant downside - but we are making it work because their program is such a good fit for my son. Knowing this now, I wish we had made the move years ago.

 

So I can sympathize. Sometimes people will go to great lengths to try to make things work, not seeing until much later that nothing is going to make it work, no matter what. And maybe that isn't even anyone's fault, it just is.

 

As for the "if you really cared, YOU would go camping" business - there are lots of reasons I object to that, number one being that a LOT of boys really would prefer their mothers (or fathers) DIDN'T go camping with them. Short of a major behavior issue, I don't think this is a justifiable demand by the troop (or by other scouters). In this case, based on the posts I've read so far, the younger sons are being "punished" by the troop for the alleged actions of the older son - and I think that's baloney. Also, some parents truly can't handle the physical demands of camping, either, which is quite a different issue from "not caring" about their children. So before tossing that incendiary out there, let's just all take a breath.

 

(With that said - 5scoutmom, based on what you have written, I really think your family would do better to find yourselves a different troop. This one probably isn't going to fit your needs anytime soon, and why would you want to expose your other children to the toxicity you've described? There are other troops out there. Find one.)

[Lisabob]

While we're at it, let's just talk about "mouthy kids" and "problem children." Sure, some kids really are mouthy, bratty, ill-mannered, snots. Some have behavioral issues that would test the patience of a saint.

 

If we stick to the "typical" kid though - one who has been raised with at least a bit of attention to manners, and one without major emotional or behavioral impairments - well, most kids do have their moments and deserve to be called up short when they misbehave. I am not advocating tolerance for unacceptable behavior.

 

BUT: A lot of what gets labeled "mouthy" or "uncooperative" or "sullen" behavior among later teens is really a product of the way adults themselves treat those teens. Teens have a very strong sense of justice, truth, and fairness. Violate it at your peril. If adults act in ways that seem mercurial or hypocritical, then they will quickly lose the respect of those same teens. When kids know they are at a power disadvantage and can't do anything but endure what they perceive as grossly unjust treatment by adults who are "in charge" then they tend to respond in ways that are often inappropriate (mouthy, sullen, etc) but also, entirely predictable.

 

People who don't get that or can't deal with it, probably shouldn't be front-line leaders in a youth program.

 

 

[evmori]

A lot of what gets labeled "mouthy" or "uncooperative" or "sullen" behavior is exactly what it is labeled.

[Frank17]

Time to move on, both literally (by finding a new troop) and figuratively (by ending this thread, that has turned into a complaint-fest). If you are talking about your son's development, it is not too much to drive an extra 1/2 hour to get to a good troop.

[moosetracker]

Ditto.. Ditto.. and Ditto to Lisabob.. I was troubled by the way this thread turned to attack mode on the mother, but couldn't put my finger on the right words.. You said it beautifully.. I to have had to change troops twice to help my son locate the perfect fit, the first one was the hardest.. We had 3 people who needed to be convinced the move was right, mother, father & son.. and when one got to that mindset the other would change their mind and think things could be selvaged based on something or other.. Then the tables would turn and someone else thought it was time to go while other advocated to stay..

 

But if the troop wants you out, they will not treat your son fairly. It will be no fun to him and sour him to scouting permanently, and worse may cause damaging life lessons that you will not want your son to learn. Scouting is a way to help build empower your son to become a great adult.. Not a place to rip him apart. You should make the move before permenant damage is done.

 

Ditto to Frank17.. Time to close the post. You guys are personally attacking the poster.. Yes there may be another side to the story (or three or four different sides).. But you guys are guessing at what the other side of the story is.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[FScouter]

I don't see any attack on anyone posting in this thread. If you all want the thread closed, they all you all have to do is stop offering more and more comments about it. The power is in your fingertips, or restraint thereof.

[Twocubdad]

I see one post I would say crosses the line with some name calling. Perhaps you should address that poster instead of shutting down a thread when you don't like the responses.

 

Moose -- after the heartache and turmoil of changing packs twice, would you go back? I'm guessing not. And you're only describing your experiences as 'not a good fit' not the conflict 5scoutmom describes.

 

So after going through all this -- after dragging us through a 100-post thread -- if you jump right back into the fire I think you can expect to catch some flack for it. As someone else posted recently, they have a name for doing the same thing repeatedly yet expecting different results.

[moosetracker]

Maybe not the right words when I said "close the post".. I more meant put it to bed, or End the discussion.. the way FScouter suggests.. No I don't see a cross the line, type that involves someone physically closing it.. I was going to not type again & follow FScouters suggestion.. But I fear if I did not clearify then we would go on for another 10 posts about it not crossing the line to get the thread shut down..

 

I do though think anyone who stated her child was mouthy, uncooperative etc.. lost the chance to discuss the issue with the OP.. You can not discuss when you bring up Momma-bears defenses against her cub.. She is probably long gone..

 

And unless you were at the situation or know the scout, you can not know if he is mouth, uncooperative etc.. Maybe he is, you may be right..

 

But just as likely he is a typical kid who says something to a little brother or friend, not realizing the implications others will place on it.. And a kid who still has black & white values, with a touch of stubborn pride.. Saying something he does not mean to help mend fences for not only himself but his whole family is not a concept he yet sees.. He sees it more as not being honest, and being a hypocrite.. Shades of gray is a concept that is slower to learn.

[SeattlePioneer]

Personally I don't like compelling people to apologize for bad behavior. That's demeaning and pointless.

 

Appropriate punishment for bad behavior is appropriate, but then drop the issue. If someone wishes to apologize for bad behavior they are then free to make an honest apology based on their own motivation to do the right thing.

[Beavah]

But just as likely he is a typical kid who says something to a little brother or friend, not realizing the implications others will place on it..

 

Yah, moose, I think yeh need to re-read da thread, eh?

 

After four pages of drama, what came down was that the OP was stunned to find out at the meetin' with the troop's adult leaders what junior really said. Momma bear agreed that the son had been mouthy and inappropriate, and that he owed the adults an apology.

 

But junior rules the roost, eh? He refused to apologize and da parents did nothing. Now, perhaps I'm too old fashioned for da modern era, but if I had discovered my kid had behaved like that and then lied to me about it for weeks gettin' kicked out of scouting would be da least of his worries . An apology would have been forthcoming if he planned to ever leave the house again .

 

There's just way too much random emotion here to make sense of anything else. On one page the ASM is a friend, on the next they'll only return to da troop if he's thrown out, then it's back to dad wants his friend back. The lesson to me seems to be that if yeh want volunteers to give their time for your kid (when you can't or won't yourself), then yeh have to support those volunteers. It seems perfectly reasonable to me for those same volunteers who have been accused of a dozen misdeeds by this family to say, "fine, then you need to come on outings.". Or absent that, to decide dealin' with this sort of high maintenance thing isn't worth their time. Yeh may feel there's a different lesson for the OP, but that's what I see. I'd want da adult leaders to warn another troop they were coming, so that some firm ground rules could be set up.

 

Now I see that some follow-ons to my post got harsher, and we should all watch the perceived harshness of posts. The whole "email has no voice inflection" bit. Da flip side is to try to read each others posts in da best light.

 

That having been said, i confess I don't really understand those who get upset when someone offers criticism to a fellow poster ("to her face" if yeh will), but then encourage or join in as someone defames fellow scouters behind their backs. The things said about the adult leaders of this troop by posters who don't know 'em have been pretty bad, eh?. If theres anything to reflect about and change in our responses, I think it's that. It's also worth rememberin' that just because yeh have had a poor experience with someone in your troop, that doesn't mean the same thing is what's goin' on here.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[5scoutmom]

Actually, I did not abandon the post. I slipped on the ice and hurt my hand and couldn't type for a couple of days...

 

Moosetracker - THANK YOU! You have described my son in the way that I couldn't. He is not mouthy and is not rude. He does see being made to apologize for something he doesn't feel he did wrong as being hypocritical. He was willing to apologize for hurting the CC's feelings but was not willing to say he respects him as a Scouter because he doesn't. I can't force him to, not without going against the principles of honesty that Scouting puts forth.

 

At this point, I have accepted that my son is not going back to this troop. He is happy in the Venture Crew and is looking forward to working at scout camp again this summer, where he will likely bunk with boys from the troop, as will my next son, who is also going to be working there.

 

My only concern now and the reason I came back to the post after we had decided that no amount of punishment was going to make him apologize is because ASM was starting to punish my younger boys for their brother's refusal to apologize and return to the troop. I was livid when I learned that ASM had told my sons they could not camp unless Scoutdad went because of their older brother's conduct. I did not think it was appropriate to tell that to my sons and he said it while standing far enough away from me that I couldn't hear it AND smiling. I thought he was telling them something good! He should have come to me because I was there. It was also inappropriate because ASM knows that Scoutdad now has a heart condition and was told by his doctor not to camp, at least for awhile.

 

Scoutdad did camp with the troop on a pretty regular basis until the last year or so, when he developed the heart condition. I do not camp because I have a physical disability that precludes it. However, we are involved parents and always have been. Both of us were den leaders (Tigers and Webelos, in fact, Scoutdad is still running a Webelos den that has no child of mine in it), Scoutdad is the ACM of our pack, I am the CC of our crew, we have run Scouting for Food for 10 years, run blood drives, been on troop committee, sat at BOR's, etc. There are many other ways to volunteer in a troop besides camping and Scoutdad and I did those in abundance. I was in the process of registering to be the troop's religous merit badge counselor for my religion, Scoutdad was signing up to be a counselor for several MBs as well. Those who say we are non-present parents who are allowing others to raise our children are incorrect. We were not on that camping trip because it was the first time in YEARS that we were going to have a weekend night alone without at least one child around and we didn't have a car capable of driving the 150 mile roundtrip to the campground. The leaders, by the way, had no issue with us not attending camping trips before this. As I said, we helped in many other ways.

 

Anyway, I am done - stick a fork in me.

 

My son is out of the troop he loved because he can't see past his teenaged self to just apologize, even if he doesn't mean it. My youngest son is probably out of scouting as well because we've already checked out 3 troops and haven't found a fit. We have 2 left and I hope we make a match at one of them. Otherwise, 14 years of family scouting is essentially down the drain.

 

Thanks to everyone who gave thoughtful comments, even if they were unfavorable. I have thought about all that each one of you has taken the time to write (including the critical ones!) and I do appreciate the different POV's.

 

I wish it hadn't turned out this way. I wish CC had not asked my son to repeat what he'd said, I wish my son had listened to his brother and made a joke about how I would make them wash the pots again no matter how well they scrubbed them, so why bother? instead of what he actually said. I wish my son could have swallowed his stubborn, 15 year old defiant pride and just apologized. I MISS MY TROOP, I MISS THE FRIENDS I MADE OVER 10 YEARS PLUS and I wish it hadn't ended this way, but I don't know what I could have done to change it without forcing my son to compromise his opinions.

 

Yours in scouting,

 

5scoutmom