Appropriate discipline for disrespect

[5scoutmom]

Scoutfish -

 

Thank you. It was SO hard to learn what the leaders had to say and to realize that it was true. I AM proud that my son admitted it straight out when confronted and didn't try to blameshift or say the adults were framing him. When they told me what he had said, I knew they were telling the truth. The expressions, the vocabulary, the intonations were my son's. Scoutdad and I were mortified. To his credit, my son looked on the verge of tears for most of the time he was in the room. I do believe that he mouthed off without bad intent, but we are judged by our actions and our words, not our intentions and I hope he is learning from this.

 

He is NOT an angel. Neither was I, though I admit to being alot more afraid to talk back to adults than he is. None of my kids are angels. They are humans. It is my job to try to guide them and help them become self-supporting, worthwhile adults who will contribute to society in some small way. Putting my head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge truly reprehensible behaviors does no good for anyone, particularly my son. I know too many over indulged bullies whose parents think the world revolves around them to want my child to be like that.

 

Thanks again.

[Beavah]

Yah, thanks for comin' back and sharin', 5scoutmom. And thanks for supporting scouting, and being the kind of parent that a young fellow of age 15 will respect and be grateful for when he's 30.

 

I reckon this thread is a good example of the way these things often play out, eh? Plenty of blame to go around, and enough drama in teens' lives that they don't need the adults adding any more .

 

And good example why we should stay thoughtful and consider all sides in our comments to posters.

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob]

Glad to hear that all worked out as well as it did. I have a teen about the same age as your son and I know there are times when he just doesn't understand the impact of his words. Seems like this is an age when exaggeration and escalation is the norm, too (get mad at someone and they're not just a "jerk" but a "nazi jerk" etc). So, hopefully, your son will learn a good life lesson and grow a bit, from this difficult experience.

 

I am curious though, what happened about the "advisor" situation?

 

 

[Greaves]

I'm glad that you and your husband feel that the meeting ended well.

 

[vol_scouter]

5scoutmom,

 

I just read this thread and I am glad that everything turned out OK in the end. As I read the thread I was struck most by the actions of the ASM who drove your son home. While I can understand his frustration about having to leave early (that was not the appropriate way to handle the situation, your son should have been allowed to remain on the trip), the ASM had a duty to tactfully and carefully try to understand what had happened from your son's viewpoint. While it might have been appropriate to point out that an elder should have some respect, in general the ASM should have only asked questions of your son. When he arrived at your home, he should have stated briefly what was going on and then asked to speak to you in private so that he could relate both sides of the issue and provide some recommendations as to how the problem could be addressed. That is what I have done in a similar circumstance with good results. The ASM missed a golden opportunity to assist your son on the path to becoming an adult.

 

A second observation is that I do not believe that youth should be prevented from attending meetings and outings for discipline problems unless the offense is egregious or it is a long repetitive string of issues. Appropriate punishments can be determined with the assistance of the PLC that do not take the youth away from a beneficial program.

 

Thank you for being a good parent and a supporter of scouting. I am glad that the resolution is all in all positive.

[5scoutmom]

The advisor was there. He asked if he could say something to us. We said he could. He apologized for issues in the past and said that he really, truly does want my son to do well. He said that the DE spoke with him after Scoutdad spoke with DE and asked him to really think about what his purpose was for attending the meeting. He told us that CC had called him all upset and wanting to expel son and he (confirmed by CC later on) told CC that was not appropriate. He said he has had several discussions with CC and that his goal is to retain boys in scouting. Based on that, we decided to let him stay. Scoutdad and I have decided to let the past go and take him at his word for the future and see how it works out. I think it was important for my son to see that his parents could also change a long held opinion and give someone another chance and that adults could apologize to each other (he wasn't present for that part, but we told him what had transpired).

 

As for the ASM, he is kind of hot-tempered and he admitted that he was pissed off at Scoutdad because he had not dropped everything to drive up to the camp and get our son as soon as ASM called. It was kind of a bummer; that weekend was literally the first time in about 15 YEARS that Scoutdad and I had no kids at home and we had plans. Scoutdad told ASM he was "working on it" as our car wasn't up to the trip and it was a Saturday night and we had no clue where to get another car at that point. ASM said take a cab ($230 round trip!) and Scoutdad told him that was ridiculous. At the meeting, ASM said he had wanted to hear "I am dropping everything to come up there now" and "I'm working on it" wasn't good enough. He was already on the road heading back to town when he made the cab comment. That's why Scoutdad has to go camping now.

 

Once we established that the issue was between Scoutdad and ASM, we were able to resolve it.

 

Meanwhile, son is once again at friend's house and I don't believe CC's son is there. I told son that I hoped it was not because of him that CC son isn't being invited and he said that he thinks the other boys are using the phony cheating and meanness accusations as an excuse to dump CC son but they wanted to anyway. He said he defends CC son but the other boys are fed up. CC's son is much less mature than the other boys.

 

We're still waiting for the email from CC outlining the requirements for the letters son needs to write.

[vol_scouter]

5scoutmom,

 

The issues between Scoutdad and ASM are understandable - I understand both sides (especially no time alone). The ASM should have been more of an adult and not taken it out on your son but that is done. You are right about going forward with positive attitude. Most adults really want the youth to succeed but occasionally have to be reminded of the reasons that they do scouting. I can only see good things by Scoutdad going on outings! Your boys (that includes hubby) will all benefit - and you will have them all out of your hair!!

[Scoutfish]

You know...we all have our moments when something gets the best of us, we make a bad decision, or just do something beneath our level of maturity.

 

Well, in this case, it just seems like everybody had their moment at the same time. Kinda like those random momenst in a crowded building when everybody randomly stops talking at the exact same moment! It wasn't planned, nobody was working with anybody else on a time table...it just happened! And you have that erie silence.

 

Same thing here: 3 or 4 people had their "less than stellar" moments at the same time. Wasn't planed, coordinated or anything like that... just random.

 

AS long as it gets worked out and everybody moves forward..it is al good.

 

And next time something might potentially happen, everybody has a previous point of reference on how to avoid the same mistakes!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[shortridge]

Did the OP's note about the religious service at summer camp toss up a red flag to anyone else?

 

"He also refused to go up to the altar for communion at the religious service. I got a phone call from the now CC, who was then the ASM in charge of camp about my son's disrespect of "his" religion. However, the CC was unaware that my son, despite his very not Jewish sounding last name, is in fact Jewish and had been instructed by me NOT to approach for communion as that would have been disrespectful."

 

Unless this is a religiously-based troop, with adherence to a single faith a requirement of membership, no Scout leader should be calling out a Scout for anything to do with religion. Religion is the purview of the family, not an ASM. If the Scout disrupted the service in some way through inappropriate behavior, that's one thing. But choosing not to take communion? Get real!

 

I've seen this type of attitude before from leaders who yell at Scouts to remove their headgear to pray before meals, completely ignorant that in some faiths, a cap of some sort - not a bare head - is a sign of reverence.

 

I'd be very concerned that this CC doesn't grasp some of the most basic concepts in Scouting. And I'd also inquire of the camp why it didn't offer an interfaith or Jewish service. A Scout of one faith should not be required to attend a service of another faith.

[5scoutmom]

Shortridge -

 

Our troop is chartered to a religious group (a church of a Protestant denomination); however, I don't believe we have any boys who practice that particular religion in the Troop; actually, I don't think we have any Protestants in our troop, but we do have Hindu and Buddhist boys. We have a mixed group but Jewish and Catholic are predominant. My son is Jewish but his father is Catholic and his last name is not at all Jewish-sounding.

 

The summer camp is non-denominational. My understanding is that a different religious group offers the service each week and there is not a requirement to attend. I think, in retrospect, that the leaders took all of the boys because they didn't want to leave them unattended in the camp site since all of the leaders up there that week were Catholic. Given my son's name (and the fact that he looks very Irish), it was a not unreasonable assumption that he was Catholic. I have been told that I look Irish, though I have no heritage in that line. What annoyed me was that they did not take my son's word, at 10 years old, that he was Jewish and not Catholic. I probably should have told them, but it didn't occur to me that they would doubt my child! The fact that they brought him to the service did not bother me at all as I think exposure to other people's religions is an important means of fostering understanding in the world. I also understand their wanting to attend their own faith's service and not wanting to leave the boys alone. In any event, this happened to be the religion of the paternal side of his family so seeing a service would not have been detrimental to him.

 

The reason I told that story was not to complain about how our religious views were violated or about how our troop is religiously based (since it's not), but to point out how little trouble my son had ever been in since joining the troop and how some of the trouble was the result of a miscommunication with the leader.

 

Believe me, I completely understand about the religious issues. If I for a second really believed that the leaders were discriminating against my son for religious reasons, I would have filed a complaint years ago.

 

In the wake of that first summer, by the way, the Troop leaders now ask the parents to indicate if they want their sons to attend any services and if so, which ones. Boys can opt to attend more and can even opt out of those their parents list but they can't be made to attend any at all. My son has been attending the Jewish and the Catholic services (most of his friends in scouts are Catholic) but he self-identifies as a secular Jew.

[NeilLup]

I just came across this thread and have now followed it from beginning to end. It's good when the system seems to work the way that it is supposed to.

 

5ScoutMom, it is none of my business what your son's challenge is and I am not asking. But if it is what the behavior described sounds like, you might want to look at a recent Scouting magazine (I believe Nov-Dec '09). There is a story about a young man with what I believe is a similar challenge and what he has accomplished. Scouting can empower great things.

 

One of the great things about Scouting is that the standards do not require perfection and they do not require success. The standard of the Scout Oath is "I will do my best." If one does that, even if one is wrong and even if one does not succeed, one has met the standard to be a good Scout. After some rough patches, it sounds as if all the leaders in your unit plus the Scouts are doing their best to measure up to that standard.

[John-in-KC]

5Scoutmom's post on faith makes one of my hobbyhorse points yet again:

 

- Faith is a matter of family

 

- It is the duty of unit serving Scouters to ask questions about faith, especially to the parents. Note that the Chaplaincy is not a youth member position. It is adult in nature, demanding maturity in faith.

 

- No Scout should ever be put in a position where what he is doing is anathema to his faith, by his unit leaders, youth or adult.

[5scoutmom]

Hi, i's me, the OP with an not too happy update.

 

In the 8 months since I last posted on this topic, my son decided not to rejoin the troop because he no longer respected the CC and the ASM and could not pretend. One of his "challenges" is a painful honesty that does not let him just suck it up or compromise. Scoutdad and I were fine with that and took over a dormant Venture Crew to have somewhere for him to go.

 

Since then, CC and ASM have gone out of their way to be vile. Advisor has backed off, perhaps because he now has a Council position. They forced me to take my son home from an Eagle project and tried to bully another scout into not inviting my son to his Eagle project. In both instances, we had sought the guidance of our district executive before bringing him over. They refused to let us come on a "family" trip unless we left son home.

 

The final straw was when they refused to let our other boys go on a camping trip unless Scoutdad went along. Our second car died the week before and I could not be alone without a car all weekend as we live in the burbs. ASM told my 11 year old that he could not go on the trip because of his older brother's behavior and because his dad wasn't going along. My son was in tears.

 

I finally had enough. I told CC and ASM in front of SM that I was pulling my two remaining boys from the Troop and to send back my money and delete my email address from the list.

 

I got an email yesterday saying that they presented the issue to the committee and they voted to accept our resignation and refund our money ($300).

 

Then, today, my middle son told me that at the camping trip, ASM's son, who is a huge 17 year old with behavioral issues, attacked another boy (almost 17 and almost as big but no behavior problems). The boy fought back and has now been told that he can't go on any more trips without a parent. There has been NO consequence to the aggressor (although, as my son pointed out, making him go camping IS a punishment, he hates being in scouts and everyone but his dad, the ASM, knows it). I am SO angry. The attacked boy is one of the sweetest, gentlest kids I know. He is angry and feels that he is being forced out of the troop for his unabashed support of my son. Several years ago, the ASM's son attacked this same boy as summer camp with a knife. The attacked boy was sent home and ASM's son got no consequence.

 

I had been debating calling and seeing if I could put youngest boy back in even if he never went camping because he misses his friends and is too young for Venture crew but after this I won't.

 

We have been invited to check out several other troops and plan to. Scoutdad is leading a Webelos 2 den this year and is sending them all to a different troop, none to our former troop.

 

Just thought I'd give an update in case anyone was having a similar type of problem.

[ScoutNut]

I am glad you finally got your sons out of that toxic Troop. Frankly, I am surprised it took you this long when there are other Troops in your area. Perhaps your sons can convince some of their friends to move with them.

 

Good Luck

 

[moosetracker]

Scouting is all about challanging a boy and pushing him to learn from his mistakes, but the major part of Scouting should be that it should be "FUN".

 

If adults take the "learning from your mistakes" to the extreme and are not fair it will unravel fast to the not having fun, and learning to disrespect those who are trying to teach respect, and then to seeing the value of a scouting background.

 

We all are volunteers hopefully with a wish to help boys develop into wonderful adults. But, some do not even have that, it is more of a personal agenda. Others just don't have the skills to implement the program right..

 

Sometime in order to make sure your family is aided and not hindered by adults like this, the best thing is to move to a different unit..

 

Wish you and your sons the best in your move.