Appropriate discipline for disrespect

[Beavah]

By the way, the SM said he has proposed a one month ban from meetings and activities (which is almost halfway done by now) and a "zero tolerance" for disrespect with him being the final and only arbiter of what disrespect is. That would be acceptable to me and my husband but we don't know if the CC will accept that.

 

Yah, hmmm....

 

Why is da CC involved in this?

 

Seems like the SM has made his decision, and that should be that. It's the Scoutmaster's job to handle this sort of discipline issue, eh? Only when it becomes a "really serious" matter that may merit expulsion should it rise to the Committee. And then it rises to the whole Committee, not to just da CC at a private meeting.

 

So to my mind, your lad should apologize to those he needs to apologize to, and then that's it, eh? Da SM has decided, and it's the SM's job to deal with da CC and ASM.

 

Who is this "advisor" fellow again? A former leader? Unit commissioner?

 

I'd have a chat with da SM and say you support his decision and that you promise your son will live up to his end. And then raise da issue that you don't think any further meetings are required, since he's made his decision and it's his call. See what he thinks.

 

Beavah

 

[5scoutmom]

Beavah -

 

The CC is the allegedly aggrieved party. He was the person my son is alleged to have disrespected on the camping trip. The "advisor" is a committee member (as am I) and he is also holds a council position. He was not on the camping trip.

 

My SM told me that the CC can unilaterally remove him from office and, in fact, the previous CC had removed this same SM with the support of the current CC and the "advisor." After an investigation into bogus allegations regarding matters outside of and unrelated to scouting, the SM was reinstated. However, he is concerned that he could be removed again.

 

I thought that the CC had the ultimate authority over the boys and the SM and that is why we have been treading lightly. My SM has stayed in scouting even though his kids have aged out because he is really dedicated and I don't want to put his position on the line.

 

I STILL haven't heard from CC about the meeting.

 

My husband doesn't want to bring our son at all. SM has asked that we bring him so I told husband that we would bring him and he could sit outside while the adults meet. My husband is leery because we were totally blindsided at the botched BOR (run by the "advisor") and my son almost quit scouting over that episode. It took a lot of work (and the return of the current SM) to get him back into it. Another attack and he is likely to just drop out after 9+ years in.

 

I think that if my son had mouthed off to anyone other than the CC, he would not be involved and the meeting would be only with the SM. I plan to ask if this would be the case. I don't think there should be a differentiated treatment because of the status of the person who is complaining.

 

By the way, it is now almost 2 weeks since the incident occurred and I have not heard from CC about it yet.

 

The meeting is set for tomorrow evening.

[Beavah]

LOL. Yah, 5scoutmom, that should read "the CC has no authority over the boys, not "ultimate" authority over the boys. Workin' with da boys is the Scoutmaster's role. The CC shouldn't micromanage, and if he does, the SM should tell him to butt out.

 

In a normal, well-run unit, da CC cannot unilaterally do anything. He's the chair of a committee. Like a chairman of the board, he sometimes may serve as da "public face" of the committee, but it is the committee that chooses to do or not do things, and the chair only has one "vote." The only people who can act unilaterally are the SM with regard to a youth or program issue, or the COR/IH with regard to makin' changes in adult leadership. So your COR can remove the SM (or the CC) unilaterally, but da CC cannot do anything unilaterally.

 

Now it's true that sometimes da official positions some folks hold in units are different than their real role or social stature. I don't care for that much; I think it gets confusin' to people. Do yeh happen to know what the "advisor's" council position is?

 

As for the other stuff about the old "botched" BOR and whatnot, yeh just have to let that stuff go. It's been years since then. It's water under the bridge. The more yeh dwell on old stuff like that the more petty you look. Keep that stuff out of it. This is a simple case of a mouthy lad being disciplined by his SM, and that's all it should be. Save all da other adult drama for when you write a soap opera.

 

And make your lad stand on his own two feet and apologize. Don't get between him and the consequences of his actions.

 

B

[Stosh]

Gotta love these games people play. No one ever heard the little childhood ditty: "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but nobody's words can hurt me"?

 

It's about time the boy apologizes and the adults grow up.

 

And by the way, I think it's stupid to wash dishes at a campout just to toss them in the dishwasher when I get home, too. I do it all the time. Usually I'm extremely busy getting things packed up that I don't have time to do the dishes if they are going in the dishwasher the minute I hit the door at home.

 

However the comment was "devolved" down to "respect is earned, not conferred." The apology goes something like this: "With all due respect, I apologize because respect should be given whether it is earned or not."

 

In 40 years of working with kids I have never disciplined anyone for disrespect. Freedom of speech is an important concept to me. Have I ever had anyone call me a jerk, or worse? Yep, and my standard answer to it is: "Sorry you feel that way, everyone is entitled to their opinion."

 

Just think about how much disruption, hurt, and relationship destruction this whole incident created.... what a total waste of time.

 

Stosh

[5scoutmom]

The "advisor" is the Advancement Chair for our district.

 

I'm really confused now. Does the CC have the authority to discipline my son or not? If the only person who can impose discipline for his infraction is the SM, I am fine with that. He does not want the advisor there. If that is the case, this meeting is not necessary. All that is needed is for my son to say words to the effect of "I am very sorry that you felt disrespected by my comments. I did not mean for that to happen." Then, he has to learn to keep his mouth shut and reserve his true thoughts for the dinner table.

 

Are you also saying that the CC can't remove the SM?

 

[OldGreyEagle]

take a look at this document, its the Guide to Safe Scouting

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf

 

check out page 3 where it says:

 

"Unit Responsibilities

 

Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members.

 

The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit."

 

Of course the discussion is whether or not this is "Reptitive or serious" and on that point, opinions may vary. Note that it says the "unit Committee should review, not the Chairman of the Committee.

 

OK OK OK, its one thing to post references and hit Control C and Control V to give you information. But what is going on here? There seems to be a whole lot ofanger in this story that seems more than a youth not wanting to wash pots and pans but I digress.

 

The role of the Unit Committee is to support the Troop's Scoutmaster and assistants. The Unit COmmittee Chair and the Scoutmaster are equals in the Troop Set up, both are under the Instititional Head (IH) who may delegate the responsibliity of adult leadership to the Charter Organization Representative (COR) Only the IH or the COR can "suspend" a Scoutmaster. They do the hiring and firing of the positions. Now, if you have a mostly vacant IH/COR combination then there may be a situation where the COR has told the Committee Chair he should run the Troop as he sees fit and if the CC is backed by the IH/COR there isn't much you can do.

 

Hopefully this is a situation where cooler heads may prevail, an apology is given and we all move on. Having a scene like the Council Meeting from "Billy Jack" with insults raining in and papers/regulations flying around will most likley accomplish not a whole lot but negatives.

 

 

As a complete aside, I find nothing wrong with having a troop policy of cleaning up completely after every meal and whether or not a pot is going to get cleanded when you get home doesn't excuse cleaning it after the meal, but thats just my opinion, I could be wrong

 

I hate when that happens(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[ScoutNut]

Ummm, OGE, while the education system of MN is fascinating, I believe that what you wanted to post was the following -

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf

 

There is a section in the BSA Troop Committee Guidebook that addresses behavior problems. It states the following -

 

"OCCASIONALLY the troop COMMITTEE may be asked by the SCOUTMASTER to deal with a problem which might involve disciplinary action or a health issue of an individual youth or adult member. These issues should be dealt with in strict confidence. If the subject concerns a Scout, his parents should be fully informed of the issue."

 

"Because serious or recurring behavioral problems may require the troop COMMITTEE'S involvement, the SCOUTMASTER should share discipline problems with the committee. Such problems should be addressed in a firm, fair manner with the goal to integrate the youth into the Scouting program. Problems that may lead to a youth's permanent removal from the troop should be handled by the SCOUTMASTER and the troop COMMITTEE, and should involve the Scout's parents or guardians. TOGETHER, the troop COMMITTEE, parents AND SCOUTMASTER should work toward a solution with the troop's best interests in mind."

 

Notice it states the COMMITTEE as a WHOLE, NOT just the Chair.

 

Your Charter Organization "owns" your troop. It is the COR, and the IH who have the only "unilateral" hiring and firing power. That is why your SM did not stay "fired" before.

 

This CC seems to have power issues.

 

Just another reason the COR needs to be at any meeting for this issue!

 

[SMT224]

Hi 5scoutmom -

 

Welcome to our campfire. This a group of folks that hail from all kinds of different Scouting groups across our great nation. The thing about Scouting is that while we all work toward very similar goals, how we get there is often very different.

 

In the Troop where I am Scoutmaster, the Committee is very much separated from Troop meetings and camping trips. The Committee works on fund raising and a very 40,000 feet view of the Troop. Except in a Board of Review, Committee members rarely have contact with Scouts It is the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster who work with the Scouts. And even then, we as adults work through the Senior Patrol Leader and Patrol Leaders. This is most evident on camping trips and at summer camp where I work through the SPL for most everything. We're not perfect, but we work hard to implement the Scouting program.

 

The situation you have described sounds like an very thin skinned adult run Troop. I am amazed that the CC was insulted enough by such a comment that the Scout was sent home and now faces not only a discipline hearing but possible suspension as well. Do these guys run a military school for their regular jobs? Unless there is a whole lot more that went on, it sounds like a tempest in a tea pot.

 

My reaction, as with others here at the fire, is to move on to the Venture Crew and leave these folks behind. They seem a bit too high strung for me.

 

However, if indeed he wants to stay with the Troop, then he will have to play the game. Whether or not the CC should have been on the camping trip, and whether or not he should have been insulted, he apparently was. And if so, then an apology is in order. Perhaps the insult was entirely inadvertent on the part of your son, but nevertheless, an insult requires an apology and hopefully discussion on how he can do better next time.

 

Best of luck with the meeting.

 

Please come back and let us know how it went.

[rdclements]

This discussion has roamed around a bit, but includes many valuable points of view to consider.

Although your Life Scout should be more careful who he chooses to do battle with, this problem started long before the campout dish washing incident.

The 'advisor' you described is a bully. Through his actions he has demonstrated a lack of understanding of the scouting program. He does not bring any value into working with youth and has earned his retirement.

The CC has been managing by intimidation, removing and reinstating the SM and allowing himself to be influenced by the advisor bully. He has also has no place in the organization and has earned his retirement.

The SM and his ASM staff should not allow any other adults to get into an argument with youth members, especially on an outing. He has failed to effectively lead and should take a moment with a mirror and decide who he wants to be.

You have waited long enough for a reply from these fools about having a meeting.

Make sure that an accurate description of these poor adult role models is provided to the head of the charter organization when your son leaves for the Crew.

[Eamonn]

rdclements,

Seems to me that if you had your way the entire Troop would fold because everyone would had retired.

 

This whole thing sounds like a storm in a tea cup.

There is still something that seems to be missing?

I feel that there is more of a history between this young Lad and the adults involved.

Sure some adults have a hard time dealing with teenagers. Some kids don't get on with all the adults.

But in the over 40 years I've been around Scouts and Scouting both the youth and the adults have found ways of keeping things from reaching a boiling point.

Ea.

 

[rdclements]

Storm in a tea cup it might be, but if it's your cup it might be a pretty big deal to you.

From the OP, her son is 15 and a Life Scout. We need to get that boy in a positive situation where he can learn and grow. In my experience, a Scout is a pretty detector of loser adults.

 

I don't know if they should all be retired, but the losers that this poster described should be. There is far too much positive to be gained from scouting to allow petty adults to rob the youth of their potential. Getting rid of the losers makes room for other who get it. The youth are the largest group of volunteers that we have and they should not be expected to waste their time with loser adults.

 

 

[5scoutmom]

Hi, all -

 

We are getting ready to go to the meeting, which may be very short because the "advisor" is apparently going to be there.

 

My husband spoke with the DE today, who told him that we should go to the meeting and ask the "advisor" to leave. If he doesn't, the DE has told us that we should leave and contact him tomorrow. He will then deal with it.

 

My husband will also contact the head of our chartered organization (not the COR who is still away but the cleric who heads the institution which charters the troop).

 

I have read the links provided and believe that the only category that is remotely implicated is "verbal insults." As near as I can get from my sons, they were having a private conversation. The older boy made the comment about the dishes (as the two of them were walking to the wash area with pots, as they were intending to wash the dishes even though they felt it was dumb; they were going to follow the adults' instructions). The younger boy laughed and the CC ran over and said "What did you say?" My Life Scout repeated it verbatim (he does not lie, except about having English HW!) and the fun began.

 

As far as we are concerned, this has nothing to do with the "advisor." The SM said he asked him once again not to come but he said he will be there. The rules say "unit committee" and I assume that means everyone on the committee (about 12 people, including myself and my husband) and not just the "advisor" that CC wants to cherry pick.

 

The bad feelings with the advisor go way back to Cub Scouts. However, I have been able to set them aside for the good of the troop, till now. I have sat on BOR's for his sons (and passed them) after the botched BOR. His oldest son actually apologized to me for his dad's behavior recently! He said he just doesn't understand why his dad doesn't like my son. I told him not to worry about it, just don't get in trouble with his dad.

 

I consider it to be the height of disrespect to me and my family to have the advisor present when we specifically asked for him not to be.

 

In any event, the meeting will be over, for the good, the bad and/or the ugly, in 3 hours.

 

I think the funniest thing is that the DE told my husband that he doesn't even know who the advisor is! I am in a large council with more than 4 districts, so there is a large layer of bureaucracy; however, the advisor tries to make himself sound so important that i really thought he had the DE's ear.

 

I will let you all know how it works out. Thanks for all the comments.

 

 

 

[AlamanceScouter]

Not to make lite of the situation but...

 

I REALLY hope the server does not go down tonight.

 

Seriously, I hope everything works out the best for everybody concerned. Thanks for bringing this topic here....I have learned a lot by following it.

[5scoutmom]

Hi, all -

 

It went much better than we could have hoped for and the sad reality was worse than we had imagined.

 

We found out last night at the meeting that after he was told he was going home, my son went and told some of the older boys what was going on. The CC's son was there and he got very upset. This has spilled out of scouting and into their social circle. The other day, my son, CC's son and 4 other boys were hanging out playing a board strategy game. The CC's son accused my son of cheating. The other boys defended my son (one of these boys was on the trip, 2 others are in the other troop in town). CC's son then left and told his father that my son sent him nasty and threatening text messages. My son doesn't have a cell phone; he doesn't want one. The texts were apparently sent to the boy's phone from another friend's phone which the boy borrowed to try and get my son in trouble. CC knows that my son has no phone and, besides, he could see the number the texts came from and it wasn't registered to anyone in my family. He is dealing with that issue with his son separately, as should be. The boy was angry because my son said his dad (CC) was "unethical," "an abuser of power" and a "power hungry megalomaniac." At the meeting last night, my son admitted saying those things. He REALLY seemed clueless as to the impact they would have on his friend and that is something "I" have to deal with. He said that if he knew those things weren't true when he was saying them (said in anger), then why would his friend believe those things. After a lot of talk, he finally GOT that saying mean things, even if they aren't true, can hurt people's feelings. These are 15 year old boys. I hope they can work it out; however, my son and his other friends have been growing apart from CC's son for awhile as he is much less mature (still plays with Pokemon cards for example).

 

Anyway, once that was taken care of, we dealt with the scouting aspect.

 

My son has to handwrite letters of apology to the CC, the ASM and the CC's son. This punishment was chosen because it is known to all of the adults in the troop that my son has a handwriting disability. The letters have to explain his thinking and why he made the choices he did. Until he writes the letters, he can't attend meetings. He has to meet with CC and ASM and read the letters to them (Scoutdad will be with him) and he can give the son's letter to CC. He will not be made to read the letter to the son.

 

My husband has to attend camping trips for the near future or at least until we get a car that can get to the campgrounds quickly. The ASM was more angry that we couldn't pick him up than about the rest of it. Also, ASM has always been urging Scoutdad to camp with them more. I would like that and Scoutdad has said he will think about it.

 

The ball is in son's court now. Scoutdad and I were livid with our son and we made that clear to him and everyone else. I was angry with him for not telling me the complete truth, for disrespecting his ASM and the CC AND for hurting his friend's feelings. I hope he writes the letter but I am not doing it for him - I got him the opportunity to make amends; it's up to him.

 

I wanted to thank everyone for their comments. I am disappointed in my son, but I love him and hope that he will learn from this experience and become a better scout and a better person. I am just glad that I came here to vent and didn't do so on the CC and the ASM prior to the meeting.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Thanks for te update and results.

 

I'll tell you what I am most impressed with, and I do not mean to insult anybody at all: I tend to see people who usually have issues with other people - who have issues with their children as over protective " But my baby is never wrong because he's an angel!" parents.

 

It's refreshing to see that you are not one of those parenst. You have no doubt to your son's...... for lack of a better word, being dumb.

 

We all do dumb stuff at that age . Some of us do it a lot ( cough , cough, not me LOL! ) more than others.

 

But like I said before.... It doesn't mean your son purposely and intentionally intended to hurt somebody's feeling or insult them. It was just a case of "not thinking things through".

 

I'm just glad you are on the "Sometimes my kids behavior is beyond me" team instead of the "My baby can never do wrong and the rest of the world is jealous" team!