Appropriate discipline for disrespect

[Scoutfish]

I do not mean to sound like I'm saying you should just pack your bags because its all your fault.

 

That is not what I meant, But what I am seeing is this: You are declairing the advisor and enemy. This "enemy" isin a position where he seems to have power and sway over everybody and they are too scared to stand against him.

 

Why will that change any time soon? No matter what you say, he will still intimidate the other adults.

 

As far as you son, I was simply saying he is guilty of being a teenager. been there done that myself.

 

As far as the ASM/friend.. I is entirely possible that as a friend, he has kinda helped your son out many times as a family friend and maybe even bestowed a little favortism on him? Maybe the enemy sees that and that is the problem there? No, it still isn't right to take it out on your son, but that could be the case? Maybe the friend is tired of helping out . Granted, that's his fault for doing it so long to begin with.( If that's the case!) Resentment isn't always instantaneous. Sometimes it simmers.

 

To go directly opposite of what the SM said sounds more like a misunderstanding. Was this conversation by cell phone or face to face? Static or maybe mis hearing one single word could have the opposite effect.

 

Anyways, it seems that if that many people could possibly be against your son, I'd might go ahead and leave. If these folks are truely acting this way- right or wrongly - this troop will crash and burn before your youngest has a chance to go to EBOR.

[5scoutmom]

Scoutfish -

 

I don't really think everyone is arrayed against my son - just the "advisor." People do kowtow to him because he has a position in Council.

 

The ASM admitted that he knew the SM didn't want him to announce it (he told the SM) but he was so angry that he did it, anyway. ASM's son is the single most annoying boy in the Troop. He hates scouting and is only in it because his dad loves the camping, etc. The boy would be very happy just to drop out and at 16 1/2 has not advanced beyond second class. My son has always dealt with him very well (ASM son's issues are very similar to those of my oldest son, who just couldn't function in scouts but is doing great in Venture crew, which is more laid back) and any favoritism my son might have gotten from the ASM is as a result of my son's general helpfulness with ASM's son, who is a year older than mine but in the same grade. However, the ASM also treats the "advisor's" son very well. Remember that I said earlier that "advisor's" son is a terrific kid and I am really fond of him. Actually, this ASM is very good with the boys as a general rule and I was shocked at what he did. He did go out of his way to be nice to my youngest at the last troop meeting but didn't apologize for upsetting him.

 

Again, I don't want to leave my troop. I just want this man out of my business and I want to put this episode behind us.

[Scoutfish]

 

"The "advisor" was not even on the trip and he is putting his two cents in."

 

WEre you there? I wasn't and neither was anybody in this forum, so I guess I'll raise my hand to "guilty as charged" . Anything we say will be our "2 cents in" based on second hand knowledge.

 

"I disapprove of the adults yelling at him, but I am not going to ask them to apologize to him. "

 

I might not ask for an apology, but I'd sure say something to them.

 

And this is another thing to look at: If yelling at scouts is considered reasonable and within the norm...again,I would leave!

 

The troop you may love may be evolving to one that you don't.

[5scoutmom]

The "advisor" wasn't there and neither was I. However, as a parent, I am not putting my two cents in; I am an involved party. The SM wasn't on the trip. He is an involved and necessary party and his input is not putting his two cents in. Frankly, if the SM had been on the trip this would never have happened. He runs a tight but fair ship. You and the other people who have kindly responded to me are not putting in your two cents, you are giving solicited comments.

 

The "advisor" may be giving solicited advice to the CC and the ASM but not to me. He does NOT have my son's best interests at heart.

 

I don't want my troop to devolve. I want it to regroup and get stronger. We got a nice bridge class of 9 boys (including my youngest and "advisor's" youngest) and I am looking forward to another 7 years in the Troop. I will be here when my Life Scout has moved on to college.

 

I want this to be a learning experience for all of us.

 

[Basementdweller]

I would approach the COR and CC about the adviser. He should be impartial and it sounds like there was some previous history, with the delayed BOR.

 

He needs to be removed for the good of the Troop. Especially if the other volunteers fear retribution.

[5scoutmom]

I can't approach the CC about removing the advisor. He hasn't even responded yet to my request that he not attend the meeting. They are good friends and hang out together outside of scouting.

 

My husband called the COR tonight. He is out of the country till next week.

 

If the SM can't prevail on the CC to keep the advisor from the meeting, there will be no meeting. That is my line in the sand.

 

Once my son's situation is settled, if we are still in the troop, I will address the advisor situation. If the advisor is not kept out of the loop, we will be out of the troop.

[ScoutNut]

Call your COR, explain the situation, and make sure he is at this meeting.

 

The COR has the REAL power in this situation, and can stop the "adviser" cold from running rough shod over everyone.

 

Edited to add, after reading your last response, contact your SM and insist that the meeting be delayed until the COR is back and can attend. If this is important enough for all the the who-ha they are going thru, it is important enough that the COR be present.

 

If they refuse to postpone the meeting, can you contact the head of the Charter Organization to attend? It seems to me that the CO needs to see exactly how it's unit is being operated, and if they will not wait for the COR, then the IH (Institutional Head) of the CO is the next one responsible for the Troop.(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

[Greaves]

this is probably a crazy question, but did the ASM drive your son home alone--in violation of the Youth Protection guidelines? Someone rode with them, right? Another adult, I would think. . . .

 

(I'm not saying that to suggest you "get even" with anyone by mentioning it at this lynchi--I mean, meeting. HOWEVER. It might make people call you back.)

[CalicoPenn]

I'm going to take this in a different direction.

 

Obviously we don't know the whole story as to how a perfectly innocuous comment made in conversation to his brother and not, apparently, as a means of defiance to an adult, about how stupid it is to sterilize the pots and pans if they were just going to be washed at home again anyway (and despite what some may see as sacrilege, the lad has a point - it is stupid - you wash a dish in hot soapy water and then rinse it in hot water, there is no real need to sterilize a dish - not unless you plan to perform surgery on it) turned into a discussion(?) on respecting one's elders that devolved into a Scout being taken home from an outing. But...

 

If it's true that they (presumably more than one adult leader) was yelling at your son so much that he was cowering in a corner, than that is absolutely, unequivocably, no excuses, unacceptable behavior on the part of those adults. Such behavior has crossed the line from discipline to bullying - and yes, adults can be bullies too. If this is really the case, then frankly the whole conversation changes. Though your son still should apologize for his behavior, it must be made absolutely crystal clear to the adults who yelled at your son in such a way to make him cower in a corner that they must NEVER EVER DO SO AGAIN - and that they will apologize to your son for the way they mishandled the situation, and that if they ever emotionally abuse a Scout again with this kind of bullying (and yes - it is bullying) that it will be reported to the Scout Executive. Beyond the whole respect your elders thing, I would be very wary about letting these adult leaders supervise any Scouts on any outings until they can prove that they can handle it. If I were the COR, and it was proven to me that the adult leaders had been yelling at your son in this manner, I would be letting those leaders know that their services were no longer required - yes, I would be firing them.

[5scoutmom]

Greaves -

 

The ASM brought his own son (16) along when he drove my son home. I read the scout rules and that's not a violation. However, when he left to do that (after yelling at my husband because we couldn't come and get him immediately - our car would not make the trip and they didn't give us time to try to find a friend who would loan us one), the CC had already left and he left the boys with 3 dads, known of whom is either committee or uniformed leadership. I don't want to get the ASM into trouble over that. As I have said, he is really an excellent ASM, very experienced in camping and scout skills. I don't believe it would serve the troop overall or the other boys to push him out of scouting.

 

My son refuses to say that he was cowering; it goes against his grain. He says "I'm not scared of them!" It was my 13 year old who told us about the cowering. I have not heard the adults' version yet, but from the way the ASM was screaming at my husband over the phone before they left the camp, I would be hard pressed to think he didn't yell at my son. I walked 10 feet away and still heard every word he said.

 

The only one I want out of this is the advisor to be off my son's case. I don't have a problem with anyone else being at the meeting.

 

I don't want to punish the ASM for one lapse in judgment, the same way I don't want my son to be punished for one lapse of judgment, either.

[ScoutNut]

5scoutmom, it is VERY important that a representative from your Charter Organization be there.

 

You may not want anyone punished, but just like in your son's case, actions have repercussions. All people, adult and youth, should be held responsible for their actions.

 

 

[AlamanceScouter]

I responded earlier but having slept on this I wanted to respond again....

 

 

Your family has been in the movement for years.....everybody, but especially your family, deserves better than this. In all the years your boys have been in the program is this the first big issue? I have learned in my short time in scouting that people show their true colors early on.....if this is your first big issue then it leads even more credence to your situation.

 

It is crucial that the COR be involved in the situation from here on out. Also, I would contract the DE and the District Chairman. G

[evmori]

My 2 worth - have your son apologize. No point stooping to their level. Rise above it!

[5scoutmom]

Scoutnut,

 

When I said I didn't want anyone "punished," I did not mean that I don't want any discipline to be imposed. I have said from the beginning that my son owes an apology and should have a sanction of some sort. What I meant was that I did not want anything "punitive," like expulsion to happen to anyone involved.

 

This is my son's first serious infraction. His first year at summer camp, he was 10 and refused to shower as often as the leaders told him to. That is now a non-issue; he showers at least once a day at this point. He also refused to go up to the altar for communion at the religious service. I got a phone call from the now CC, who was then the ASM in charge of camp about my son's disrespect of "his" religion. However, the CC was unaware that my son, despite his very not Jewish sounding last name, is in fact Jewish and had been instructed by me NOT to approach for communion as that would have been disrespectful. He told the adults that and he chose not to accept what he had said. That was my fault. It was our first camp summer and I didn't realize what the religious service would entail. I should have told the leaders of our religious affiliation and not relied on a shy 10 year old to explain it successfully. Sicne then, we have had no issues beyond the usual boy boisterousness. No cursing, no yelling, no violence or fighting, with or without knives. Nothing. He has been well-respected by his peers and the other boys, older and younger.

 

My son was the youngest boy ever elected to OA from the troop and is a Brotherhood member already. He was in the troop one year when he was elected and beat out boys who had been in the troop for many more years.

 

I don't believe that I can get our COR to a meeting this week as I have been told he is out of the country. I will try his house again and see when he is getting back. Our CE will intervene to call off the advisor. My husband spoke with him and he said that there is no way a boy who is Life and just a couple of merit badges away from being able to start his eagle project is being expelled for an offense like this one. Our DE would attend the meeting if asked to by the CE. My preference would be for the CC to call the advisor off on his own. If that happens, I think we have the best chance of getting past this episode relatively unscathed. If not, there may be some bad feelings that I would hope would subside and, if they don't, my son will get his eagle through the venture crew, where I am the CC and my husband is soon to be the CL.

 

My main concerns, again, are to get a sense of what a suitable (i.e., not vindictive) sanction would be for my son and how to keep the "advisor" out of my family's business. I think the best way to describe the guy would be to call him a "Doug Niedermeyer."

 

Thanks again to all of you who are responding to me. You are helping me to formulate thoughts and recall new facts.

[Greaves]

I'm actually relieved that the ASM brought his son along. Yout Protection stuff is just as much Adult Protection stuff. (It shows that the ASM isn't a complete fool, if you know what I mean.)

 

(so, yes, my question was kind of crazy. Of course they followed YPG!)

 

I would INSIST on delaying this meeting until your COR and other less partial people can participate.

 

You son needs to apologize--everyone agrees with that, it's not news. The man won't take your calls. So, perhaps, having your son write a letter--on paper with a stamp and everything--will show your family's commitment to doing what is right, give your son a chance to verbalise his perspective and "get it over with." If the man later wants a spoken apology and is willing to accept it, your son will have the advanatage of having thought the words through before having to talk.

 

I hope y'all are able to sort things out.