Buffalo Skippers Ordeal

[DancesWithSpreadsheets]

It looks like Buffalo Skipper's post about his OA ordeal last weekend was lost in the server shuffle, so I'm starting a new topic to (unoffically) welcome him as a brother of the Yustaga Lodge.

 

(I say unofficially because I'm about 28 years behind in paying my lodge dues).

 

Anyway, I'm interested in knowing how it went for you. Was it at Euchee?

 

Regards,

 

DWS

[Buffalo Skipper]

DancesWithSpreadsheets,

Thanks for noticing. Yes it was at Euchee. That makes (unofficially) nights 159 and 160 which I have collectively spent at our beloved scout reservation. As I said in my original post, I have patiently been waiting for years for the opportunity to be involved with the OA, so my expectations of the ordeal experience were understandably high. I did what I could to make it as meaningful and thoughtful experience as I could. I was not surprised to find that the actual ceremony was well executed and and rewarding. One of my good friends was Elengomat, which only added to the experience. And of course feast was excellent (ribeyes!). On a more physical note, we added another row in the front and back of Whipple Circle.

 

You ought to come to the Chapter meeting tonight. It is at the Troop 3 scout hut at 7pm. I don't think they will make you pay for all 28 years of back dues owed. That would be, well, more than $50. ;>)

 

Thanks again for the warm welcome.

[DancesWithSpreadsheets]

Thanks for the reply, although I see now that your original post was not lost, I just didn't scroll far enough down to see it.

 

I would love to come to the meeting, however I am living about 500 miles away now and if I started righ now I don't think I could make it on time, but thanks for the offer.

 

Best wishes to you and the lodge,

 

DWS

[Crew21_Adv]

Congrats Buffalo Skipper!

 

Do they still tell the first year campers, the legend of the "One Eyed Euchee"?

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Buffalo Skipper]

Sure do. For a while, they started telling the story to the Cub Scouts at family camps, but that ended when too many cubbies stayed scared all night and couldn't sleep.

 

The camp is not what it used to be, or at least it is not what my boyhood image was, which may well be skewed in nostalgia. But we have a great SE and for the first time a full time council PD, both of whom are dedicated to upgrading the facilites. With the current economy, a capital campaign is out, so we are doing little, but necessary, improvements as required. We put new windows in the dining hall, and are planning on a new roof. We are repaving a portion of the road from the ranger house to the dining hall. Windows, roof and pavement are all original and 50 years old. Long term plans call for much more.

 

It is not the most luxurious camp in the south, but it is one of the largest, and at $160 (in council), it is one of the most affordable. We may not have extravagant facilities, but we have excellent program. How can you go wrong with a legend of a one eyeed indian warrior wandering the reservation who can never die?

[T2Eagle]

I tried to spin this off in a new thread, but received some error messages.

 

Buffalo Skipper's tale of being passed over in his troop for election to OA is currently being repeated in our troop. Our troop routinely fails to vote in boys who are emminently qualified but for whatever reason aren't particularly popular. I was surprised the first time I saw this and disturbed the next, especially because there is no longer a restriction on the number of scouts from a troop who can be elected. Does anyone else have experience with this? Any tips on how to achieve a better outcome?

 

In the same vein, when do you announce the results of your election? We don't tell the scouts the results, we just let them wait to hear at "call" out at summer camp. But I was sitting next to a scout at camp last summer as he realized he had been passed over for the third time and wednesday night, parents night, of summer camp is a tough time to be shown that your fellow scouts either don't like or don't respect you.

[Crew21_Adv]

BuffaloSkipper,

 

Greetings again!

 

Great to hear about the improvements to Camp Euchee and Spanish Trails Scout Reservations.

 

There was a large acreage for the camp and Spanish Trails could host many Scouts at two campsites.

 

I was only opposed to the sandy terrain, it seemed that camp was 25-30 miles from the gulf coast, but most of the terrain seemed to be a dirt/sandy mix. (Just part of natural environment though). The sand seemed to reflect the heat even more during the summer time. None of the Scouts would stay up during camp, because they were exhausted from all the Summer Camp classes and events. And then the tremendous heat took a lot out of them.

 

 

T2Eagle,

 

I am a father of two (past) Chapter Chiefs, so naturally, I drove to many elections. Here are my recommendations to improve OA voting result statistics.

 

Show the most recent election video (it can even be found on YouTube).

 

Have the Scoutmaster or Troop Scribe make printed ballots with names on them, maybe even a picture of the Scouts face, and including an option for all of the above.

 

Popularity contest are difficult, there is little a Scoutmaster can do to prevent an 11 year old from only voting for the Life Scout that makes him laugh. Here is what I usually recommend, Part of the eligibility is that the Scoutmaster has already approved them for election eligible. We usually asked the Scoutmaster to make one last endorsement, such as; Fellas. All of these Scouts up here have help you with advancement, helped you earn Tenderfoot, Second Class. All of these Scouts have taught you knots and help you during cooking duty. I highly endorse each of these candidates

 

This statement usually reminds them one last time, to not just vote for one funny candidate out of many candidates; But to think at the last minute, who also helped them advance. Sometimes that final All of these guys are deserving endorsement helps improve the results (and sometimes it has no effect).

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[Oak Tree]

I did have a leader who was disturbed at the results of our election one year and wanted to know what we could do to change the process. Well, nothing. Oh, we could try doing as Crew21 Adv suggests, but in the end the Scouts are voting for those who they think deserve to be in. In our case, I knew why the one Scout didn't get it. The other Scouts knew more about him than the adults did.

[Crew21_Adv]

Fellow Scouters,

 

Regarding election outcomes.

 

Yeah.. It is an unproven theory of how to improve election outcomes. It only appears to work. But I have no valid ways to prove it.

 

I've met a few Scoutmasters that winced, at the low results. When they just did an election, without accepting advice from the election team before arrival. Those leaders would only get one scout elected out of about ten eligible candidates.

 

The other Scoutmasters that accepted some of the recommendations usually got seven or eight (if not all) elected out of ten candidates. Those Scoutmasters were usually more please with the final election results.

 

So, I can't prove it, but I give this advice each year to the Roundtable meeting, before our Chapter Elections begin.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Oak Tree]

Crew21 Adv,

 

I didn't mean to imply I didn't believe you. I think it's clear that the Scoutmaster's actions can have some effect on the voting, although as you say, it would be impossible to prove.

 

Shifting the scales towards accepting more Scouts is probably a reasonable goal. In our case, the leader wanted to more-or-less reorder the voting (give the SM a few extra votes to add to one Scout, or something). I think it would be very difficult for the SM to manage to re-order the voting in some fair fashion. I'll think about giving the scales a slight nudge towards acceptance, though.

[Buffalo Skipper]

In our area, the OA lodges send out election teams to troop meetings. They show the video talk about it for a few minutes and conduct the vote. I have provided ballots (as Crew21_Adv suggests), but the election team (scouts, not adults) tallies and reports the results to the SM. Only the scouts get a vote. There can be no "re-ordering" of votes or "extra" votes to see that some other scout does get in.

 

Adults, however, do have a vote. The committee can select one adult (for every 50 scouts?) to attend ordeal. This means that the scouts and committee members get to vote, but the SM and ASMs do not. That is not a complaint, just the way it is.

[Oak Tree]

Right, I know. That's what I told him.

 

But as Crew21 Adv suggests, what the Scoutmaster says can have a big effect. By emphasizing some traits over others, a Scoutmaster could influence the vote. There are all kinds of things a Scoutmaster could say, appropriate or not. "As you vote, you should remember recent trips and who has been the most helpful on them." - "I personally have found all of these Scouts to be excellent candidates and I would be very disappointed if any of them were not elected." - "I'd like to especially emphasize that cheerful service is being shown by everyone who is holding a position of responsibility in the troop." Heck, before the OA team starts, the Scoutmaster could even give a personal rundown of each Scout.

 

Thus far I haven't tried to influence the elections at all - but if it were to become clear that it was getting too hard to get elected, I might try to shift that. So far I've been happy with the Scouts' decisions and the way the vote has turned out.

[T2Eagle]

Thanks Gentlemen,

 

I'll look for that video and see what our chapter does. I don't want to do anything like mess with the vote count, but a looong time ago I was Vice-Chief of my lodge and I think there are potentially some very good brothers in our troop but they have to get there first.

[BDPT00]

I'm a bit surprised we haven't seen any advisors or election team folks jumping in on this. I happen to think that it's totally inapproriate for a Scoutmaster to put some undue pressure on the voters (by telling the kids that he personally endorses all of them, or that he'd be disappointed with the voters if they didn't select all of them). There should also be no "all of the above" on a ballot. I'd like to see where such practices are suggested in OA literature. I'd also be interested in seeing where SMs and ASMs are excluded from selecting adults.

Incidently, there is not, nor has there been a restriction on how many youth can be selected.

BDPT00

 

 

[Crew21_Adv]

BDPT00 and Fellow Arrowmen,

 

Greetings!

 

First my apologies to Buffalo Skipper for stealing this thread.

 

Yeah.. I agree, my advice or comments are opinionated. I've consolidated comments and advice from other fellow Arrowmen/Advisors, but I do believe (opinion) that a few added steps enhance a more favorable outcome.

 

It is disappointing as an Associate Chapter Advisor, to pull a Scoutmaster over, and see the look on his face, when only one boy (out of approximately 10 candidates) is elected; when the Scoutmaster was hoping that most of the worthy candidates were elected.

 

Then the next year, it plays out the same way again. Possibly a bully or funny guy is the only one out of 10 candidates that gets elected. And the Chapter Chief and Associate Chapter Advisor again have to pull the Scoutmaster aside and show him/her that only one of ten was elected. Watching even another disappointed grimace and exhale.

 

Also, after watching the election video, and being read the guidelines a second time, it is also disappointing to hear a few Tenderfoot Scouts comment; I thought I could only vote for one or I didnt understand the rules, knowing their educated vote could have allowed a hard working First Class or Star Scout become an Arrowman.

 

My Chapter now ask for printed ballots from the troop scribe, primarily for the large troops where first year Scouts dont know the older Scouts names, but they know the candidates as the guy that makes me laugh or the guys that makes me wash dishes. Ive seen it many times, in my troop and many other troops.

 

If elections were truly fair and unbiased, there would be no need for endorsements or printed ballots. But, again in my opinion. Some local Scoutmasters have been disappointed year after year with low results and one worthy candidate becoming an Arrowman, while nine worthy candidates may never become an Arrowman.

 

Regarding a restriction on how many candidates may be elected. This is from memory recall, so I have no valid proof. I believe it was about an 1998, 1999 update to the OA literature. There previously was a limitation on how many youth could be elected into the OA, by a troop. Previous literature which limited membership contained a guideline similar to this. Of those whom exceeded 50 percent of the ballot votes, only the top 50 percent of those receiving a majority vote are invited to the Ordeal. The previous idea of getting the cream of the crop, was excluding some potentially outstanding future leaders.

 

After a long review of that guideline, the National OA Committee determined that many worthy First Class Scouts thru Eagle Scouts just were never being recognized and becoming Arrowmen. Many of these Scouts were good and faithful Scouts. Good young men, but by the limiting percentages, they were never Arrowmen. The National OA Committee changed the policy just a little over ten years ago, to better allow those that are worthy to enter into the brotherhood.

 

Again. A matter of personnel opinion. But I feel that there are many worthy Scouts that camp endlessly, advance in rank, and help younger Scouts begin their trail; many of these worthy Scouts that are never recognized. While still it is a free election, the verbal endorsement serves as a reminder of what the candidates have done (besides making the younger Scouts laugh, the younger Scouts frequently forget that the older Scouts have taught them Scouting skills). While the ballots to remind all of the Scouts (mainly the youngest Scouts) the names and sometimes faces of their fellow Scouts.

 

As difficult a time that American citizens have with National elections, imagine the Arrowman fate of a 16 y/o Eagle Scout resting in the hands of a new 10 y/o Scouts pencil.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv