Corporal punishment or not? How can we discipline?

[Exibar]

this is a spin off from another thread. If a scout is to be disciplined for a wrong doing, how can we reprimand them?

 

Would having them wash dishes for the patrol that night be considered "corporal punishment"?

 

I had two scouts hide on us when it came time to put the tables and chairs away at a troop meeting. I saw them and righ taway had them take two chairs out, put them in the middle of the floor then put them away. I then had them take two more chairs out and had the ASPL ask them to sit down. I told the boys that if they are caught hiding to get out of their duties again, that they will put ALL the tables and chairs away for a month's worth of troop meetings by themselves. The ASPL then told them to put those two chairs away and to go home as it was the end of the meeting and their parents were waiting for them anyway.

 

Could that be considered corporal punishment? I didnt' think it was, and one parent was standing right there when I reprimanded the boys.

 

How do you reprimand boys that misbehave out of the realm of "boys being boys"?

 

Mike B

[Scoutfish]

Well, I always thought of corporal punishment as spanking, whipping or slapping.

Wikipedia defines it as:

 

"Corporal punishment is the deliberate infliction of pain as retribution for an offence, or for the purpose of disciplining or reforming a wrongdoer, or to deter attitudes or behaviour deemed unacceptable. The term usually refers to methodically striking the offender with an implement, whether in judicial, domestic, or educational settings"

 

So, going by that, I would say corporal punishment would be to make them carry as many chairs as possible until it hurt or they got blisters.

 

In school, ..well it was the old wooden paddle . Maybe it had holes drilled in it and it whistled as it approached your butt ( not that I would know! LOL!)

I did have a teacher in 3rd grade who made a few of us "overly talkatibve / attention rexled students jump up amnd down for like.... 20 minutes. She didn't let us stop until we were crying because of cramps or stomach pain.

 

THAT WAS CORPORAL PUNISHMENT.

 

I like your solution. Next den meeting, announce that the two offendes will put away "X" number of chairs all by themselves.... In front of everybody.

 

[rdclements]

I was aware of a similar event a while back. The routine was that patrols took turns being having the cleanup job after each meeting. A couple of guys shirked the job. In response, their patrol leader and conferred and decided that the patrol would serve again at the next meeting. The 2 shirkers got appropriate heat from their fellow patrol members for failing the patrol and the point was made.

When it works, it works well.

[jhankins]

I've been wondering about troop discipline after a committee meeting last night (I'm the UC). 2 instigators started a messy situation at the CO's building, and well, let's just say it wasn't pretty what happened thanks to their actions.

 

The Scoutmaster wants to suspend the boys, the committee wants to talk to the parents and the boys (their 2nd offenses), and I wasn't really sure what to suggest, except it needs to be a strong statement and the other boys should have some sort of "talk" with the offenders.

[DeanRx]

jhankins - I think we need some additional info in order to give a valid opinion on the situation...

 

When I was a lad (some 25 o 30 years ago now) - the most common discipline applied by SM was:

 

1) Not being allowed to participate, sit-out or suspend if needed for X number of days / meetings - maybe delay a BOR by one meeting

 

2) Pushups (10 to 20) for minor infractions... not sure how this would go over with parents these days - God forbid we use a form of punishment that would serve the purpose AND improve physical fitness at the same time

 

3) "Move that pile of rocks from A to B, or move that picnic table from A to B, then back again"... most often used for mild to moderate infractions at summer camp

 

4) "Go stand under that tree and don't move for 5 minutes, if you move, the time starts over" - teenage version of being in time-out

 

All those seemed to handle anything I or most of my friends could ever do wrong while in scouting. If the infraction involves an issue that could cause physical harm to another, then maybe talking to the parents is in order. But, I personally saw the picnic table moving work very well to discipline two guys who had come to fistacuffs at summer camp. Then again, the counselor made them move the tables from about 10:00 at night until past midnight all over the parade grounds in front of other campers enjoying their crackerbarrel time - not the most PC way to do it, but it got his point across.

[evmori]

I have always felt the punishment should fit the crime. Shirk your dish detail, ya get extra dish detail. Keep a sloppy tent, ya get site clean-up duty. None of these are corporeal punishment.

[Twocubdad]

Usually, I don't like the idea of using clean-up detail as punishment. Clean up is something we all have to do as part of the routine of a campout. If I have to clean up from lunch because I did something wrong, what happened to the guys who cleaned up breakfast just because it was their duty? And what happened to guys who were supposed to clean up lunch? They get a freebie?

 

But that's a campout. There are a fixed number of meals and, hopefully, the patrol established a duty roster prior to the campout.

 

But in the situation of a troop meeting, there will always be one next week. You can suspend the regular cleaning schedule and require these two guys to do the clean up by themselves for a couple weeks, then resume the regular schedule. I'd call the parents to make sure they know why their kid is staying extra-late for a couple meetings and hopefully re-enforce the lesson at home.

[OldGreyEagle]

from the Guide to Safe Scouting:

 

"Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members.

 

The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit.

 

If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action.

 

The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member.

 

Each Cub Scout den and Webelos Scout den and each chartered Cub Scout pack, Boy Scout troop, Varsity Scout team, and Venturing crew shall have one leader, 21 years of age or older, who shall be registered and serve as the unit or den leader. A unit leader may not serve simultaneously in any other position within the same unit. The head of the chartered organization or chartered organization representative and the local council must approve the registration of the unit or den leader on the appropriate form."

 

So, if the question is how do we discipline scouts when we can't publicly cane them, the G2SS has the answer. If the situation is intolerable in the eyes of the adults present, then have the offended scouts removed from the activity and then deal with is, with parents, afterwards

 

 

As an aside, I do not favor pushups as punishment. All this does is teach the youth if you are strong and can do a lot of pushups easily, you can do whatever you like, against the rules or not, and the worst thing you will have to do is a few pushups, which you can do without a problem anyway.

 

But if you are weaker, then you have to follow the rules because if you don't, you have to do something that is very hard for you. Of course, if you work at your strength alot, pretty soon you can screw around on campouts and not have to worry about it, as the only consequence is doing a few pushups, which is what you did to get the ability to screw around in the first place.

 

I don't think its up to the adults on trip to decide long term consequnces for a transgession. The emotion of the minute and their state of mind at the time may cause either an over reaction or a dismissing as trivial something that is not

[Buffalo Skipper]

With our new group of scouts, we have a pretty good group of scouts, but there are a few notable ones on whom we are keeping a close eye.

 

At (summer) camp, throwing sticks and stones is a common problem, sometimes eventually resulting in someone getting hurt. Our solution is that if a scout is caught throwing a stick or rock, he must carry a (much larger) stick or rock wherever he goes. This usually lasts about 20-30 minutes until the point is made. Next time, it is a larger item for a longer period of time. It has never happened with us more than twice in a weekend.

[BrentAllen]

For the two shirkers in the OP, I would have pulled them aside for a quick SM conference, and reminded them the Scout Oath they recite states they will help other people at all times. I would ask how does hiding when there is work to be done live up to the Oath? I would wait for probably several uncomfortable minutes before moving to the next point - showing Scout Spirit and living up to the Oath is a requirement for advancement, and as of right now, they just failed that one. They are going to have to go out of their way to show me they are meeting this requirement from this point forward, if they expect to advance.

 

I've been very fortunate in that we haven't had to deal with any real behavior problems. They aren't saints, but they are pretty well behaved. Our PLC knows what is acceptable and what isn't, and they pass this down to their Scouts. I tell our PLC members that if they run into a behavior issue with a Scout and he won't listen to them, just say, "OK, but our SM doesn't like that." If the Scout starts asking questions, "what do you mean?", they shouldn't elaborate but just repeat it again. I haven't had any situation escalate to where I heard about it, but if a Scout were to be brought to me following the above, I would let them know that was unacceptable behavior, and if they want to remain a member of this Troop, they better change their ways. It is a privilege to be a member of our Troop, not a right.

[Eagledad]

>>Our PLC knows what is acceptable and what isn't, and they pass this down to their Scouts.

[Eamonn]

Most of the Lads I have known that are Scouts are really great kids.

They want to do the right thing and are very agar to do their best to please the adults who work with them and for them.

But they are kids.

Just because a Lad puts on a Scout uniform doesn't by any means make or turn him into an Angel.

It is very important that we adults go out of our way to find the things that they (Scouts.) Do right or do well and we praise them for it.

A little smile and a "Good Job" Or "Well Done!" Goes a very long way.

 

Over time each of us develops our own way of how we manage the Scouts we serve.

I know some really good leaders who when pushed will start yelling and shouting.

I'm way too lazy for any of that!

I tend to have a set of "Looks". Which over time the Scouts all get to know and read.

When a Scout does mess up, it is worth the time to bring him over for a little chat.

The art of the "Little Chat" is having him do nearly all the talking.

Some adults do seem to have a very hard time listening.

Ask open-ended questions, find out why? He is acting the way he is.

Many times Scouts get the idea that we are not being fair and are maybe picking on them.

Sometimes they are right.

It takes a great leader to be able to admit this to a Scout.

 

People wiser than I am might be able to explain, that sometimes them acting up is some kind of a "Power Game". They want to see how far they can push and how much they can get away with.

(I get this a lot from the inmates in the jail.)

When this is happening I let it be known that I'm not playing these silly games and point out that I expect to be treated the same way as I treat them.

I respect them, I don't call anyone names, I don't put people down (OK sometimes I joke around.)

It is worth remembering that kids join Scouts to have fun. If the program is not fun and isn't challenging they will get bored and act up.

I have visited Troops where the end of the meeting drags on and on. Announcements seem to never end. It is no wonder the Scouts are ready to play up! Heck I felt like joining them!

 

We are in the business of trying to get Scouts to do the right thing, just because it's the right thing to do. (My take on all the Ethical Choice Stuff.)

Do we really want Scouts to do the right thing out of fear?

I would hope not.

No, it's not easy, but it is worth the effort.

Eamonn.