Knots? Dual service tenure ?

[Eagle92]

Base,

true you can only register for one contact position per unit, except the IH, COR, and CC (a person can hold two or all three of those positions).

 

The challenge is when a person is multiple registered with two units, say a pack and a crew or a crew and a troop, or are registered with a unit and the district. As I said I can understand wanting to use the same length of time for say for one unit award, i.e. Cub Scouter Award and another unti award, say STA, ot a unit award and a district award, say the District Committee Key.

 

BUT not only do the sheets themselves say you cannot double count tenure, except for SMK and STA ( and whoever said the AK and AATA AS WELL AS Skipper's Key and Sea Scouter training award is right theose requirement sSHOULD mirror the STA and SMK but another publication that I cnanot place also states that Could it be theDistrict Training pamphlet?

[CHLees3rd]

Are you allowed to use the same tenure for more than one award/key? My answer is that it depends on the awards in question.

 

I just looked at the progress record sheets for the Den Leader Award, the Cub Scouter Award, the Cubmaster Award, the Tiger Cub Den Leader Award, the Webelos Den Leader Award, and the Venturing Leader Training Award. There is no need to interpret what the tenure requirement means. It is in plain English and states, "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award." So if one of the awards in question is from this list, then you can not use the same tenure years for both.

 

Also, notice the word "key" is used in all the awards listed above which are mostly from the Cub Scout division. There are no keys earned/awarded in Cub Scouts. Keys are earned/awarded in Boy Scouts, Venturing, the Commissioner Services, and the District Committee. Therefore, a Cub Scouter can not use tenure time for the above listed awards and for awards/keys in other divisions. So WestCoastScouter's example of a Cub Scouter earning the Den Leader Award could not apply the same tenure time towards earning the District Committee Key.

 

Speaking of District Committee Key, it has a tenure requirement which states, "Tenure for one award cannot be used for other training awards." The same requirement is on the progress record for the awards/keys of the Unit Commissioner, District Commissioner/Asst. District Commissioner, Roundtable Staff, and Roundtable Commissioner. So if a Scouter is working towards one of these awards, then the years of tenure count only once.

 

The following awards/keys have no restriction on the tenure requirements as listed: Pack Trainer Award, Boy Scout Leader's Training Award, Scoutmaster's Key, and Advisor's Key. Hence, Scouters can pursue the Pack Trainer Award, the Advisor's Key, and either the Boy Scout Leader's Training Award or Scoutmaster's Key the same tenure years. The only added requirement amongst these awards is that the tenure of the Boy Scout Leader's Training Award can be used towards the tenure of the Scoutmaster's Key. The same is not true for the Advisor's Key.

 

So there you have it. No need to interpret the requirements or read in between the lines or adhere to the spirit of the law. As of right now, if you want to use your Scouting years towards the maximum amount of awards concurrently, you must register as a Pack Trainer, a Scoutmaster, and an Advisor. Good luck with that! Otherwise, it's one knot at a time.

 

Chazz Lees

 

[CHLees3rd]

I just checked the Skipper's Key and the Sea Scout Leader Training Award. Neither have restrictions on tenure. Also, The Skipper's Key does not state that tenure for the Sea Scouting Leader Training Award can be used for its tenure. It appears five years are needed for both awards. The same is true for the Varsity Leader Training Award and the Varsity Scout Coach's Key. As written the requirements of tenure are five years total in order to earn both.

 

Chazz Lees

[83_Eagle_T148]

The examples you are using are specific to den leader knots. I understand the original question was about the cub scout Den leader award, and it clearly prohibits using tenure for another award while working on it. However, no all awards have the same restriction, like the scout training award and scouters key.

 

For example: A leader can be a pack trainer, and work on the pack trainer and cub scouter awards using the same tenure. To take it to another level, the same scouter could also be a commissioner working on the commissioners key and doctrine of commissioner science at the same time - that's a total of four knots.

 

I'm not advocating working on multiple awards at one time, but it is possible with many of the leader awards.

 

[Basementdweller]

I have to laugh at myself. I musta been in a bad mood last night.

 

 

It is a bobble for an adult shirt.......WHO CARES??? If it makes a volunteer feel better, bully for them. I will say that at one point having a bunch of knots was important to me, now not so much.

 

My current shirt has my council, unit POR, World scout patch and that's it. I tear them up too much and too often to do all the extra sewing.

 

 

 

[CHLees3rd]

@83_Eagle_T148

 

If you reread my post, you will see that I mentioned many awards and not just the ones for Den Leaders. I read a bunch of progress records the other day and just compiled groups with the same requirements. The Cub Scouter Award clearly states, "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award." Since the Pack Trainer Award is anotheraward, a Pack Trainer must use different tenure years if he/she wishes to earn both the Pack Trainer Award and the Cub Scouter Award.

 

As for the second part of your scenario, I guess the answer depends on whether the Doctor of Commissioner Sciences knot is considered a training award. If it is considered a training award, then the time could not be used concurrently because the tenure restriction on the Progress Record for the Commissioner Key states, "Tenure for one award cannot be used for other training awards." I guess the same goes for the Distinguished Commissioner Service Award. Not sure if either one is considered a training award. My thoughts are that neither is a training award so the tenure can be concurrent.

 

Im not sure why the restrictions were added and the requirements were written as they were. In my opinion, if someone is willing to pay his/her money to register for multiple positions across divisions and do the work necessary to earn each award/key associated to said positions, then he/she should be able to get all award/key regardless of circumstances, especially if he/she is doing a top notched job in every position.

 

@Basementdweller

 

I think the training awards and keys are a way to show how much Scouters care and work so that the program presented is great for the Scouts. Many Scouters get trained but fail to use what they learned. The training awards and keys program is a great way to get Scouters trained and to have them do something with that training for a certain period of time to keep their Scouts interested. The awards have supplemental training involved like Roundtables and/or Universities of Scouting so that Scouters keep learning and taking ideas back to their units. The awards have activities included which people associate with good Scouting such as leading a service project or counseling Scouts for merit badges. Plus, people like to get recognized for their hard work, and they should get recognized especially if the unit's program is a rocking success! Hopefully all that the Scouters do for their awards becomes second nature to them and Scouting flourishes. So I think it is a big deal and I promote the awards as well.

 

Chazz Lees

 

[nolesrule]

Earning the Commissioner key is a requirement for earning the doctorate (but not the BCS and MCS). The doctorate itself requires a minimum 5-year tenure as a commissioner. I don't think that the program was intended that someone earn the Key and then start on the doctorate program, otherwise it would have been written into the requirements as a prerequisite for the whole college program. In addition, the Arrowhead Honor is a requirement for both the Commissioner Key and the Masters degree. Why would Arrowhead Honor even be a requirement if it was designed that you had to earn the Key first due to tenure restrictions.

 

It's obvious based on the requirements that the College of Commissioner Science program was designed so that it could be run/earned concurrently with earning the Arrowhead Honor and Key.

 

Edit to add:

 

Agree with that last paragraph Chazz. It shouldn't be about the square knot above the pocket. It's about taking steps for personal improvement to help improve your particular role as a Scouter. The physical award or knot is a carrot for those that need that sort of thing. It's a shame that the knots themselves have earned any kind of connotation beyond what they actually represent.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[Basementdweller]

I am not downing the knot program......for some it is a need appropriate carrot.

 

 

All to often I see adult scouters judge each other by the bobbles on their shirt. My point is....if your involved in scouting in our district or council you all ready know who I am, if you don't then I will prove my worth thru deeds not silly knots.

 

I recall seeing some posts on this forum from new scouters intimated by adults who have a bunch of knots on their shirts. pfffffttttt. I would rather be approachable by new parents or scouters.

 

I do have a shirt with all of awards, patches and flaps, do dads on it, I wear it recruiting or to council fancy functions.

[Eagle92]

base,

I hear ya about the baubles. i try to use mine as conversation starters and motivators. My tigers love asking questions about the stuff on my uiform.

 

Right now I do have 2 "interesting items' that I am wearing for the next 5 or so months. Since I am the CSDC PD with a Space theme, I'm wearing a YODA figurine as temp insignia, and my old summer camp domino, which is a staff recognition, that I will be using for CSDC staff that work the entire week. the Yoda is to promote camp, the domino is to recruit staff.

[nolesrule]

You sure you aren't wearing a Toy Yoda on your uniform because you have a stuck Scouting accelerator?

[BDPT00]

"It is a bobble for an adult shirt.......WHO CARES??? If it makes a volunteer feel better, bully for them. I will say that at one point having a bunch of knots was important to me, now not so much."

 

I see this as a common theme regarding recognition. Our program has thrived for a hundred years, due in part to earning and receiving recognition (and yes, I do happen to know that it's for the boys).

I see two kinds of people who are critical of wearing bobbles and beads: those who don't have them, and those who've become accustomed to them. People downplay them for numerous reasons (either false or real humilty mostly). To me, they're very important. We all like to hear our own name. We like to be recognized for what we do. We complain if we work for 10 years at a company, and nobody has ever bothere to say "thank you." True? Things are different in Scouts. When we do a good job (heck, change that to if we just show up!), we get thanked and recognized. To those who are critical of adult recognition (either real or fake humility), we hear that "a smile on a boy's face is all the thanks I need." Fine. Thank you.

Yes, I see plenty of adults who overdo it (some kids too), but I consider it a matter of maturity. To those who don't wear all of the recognition, thank you. To those who do, thank you.

BDPT00

 

 

[The Blancmange]

And I thought my jokes were bad?

[nolesrule]

I apologize. I couldn't help it.

[Eagle92]

Nah I don't have a stuck on Scouting accellerator. Ok gotta get back to getting ready form my teleconference on the CS family Campout next month, prepping to CSDC camp promos tomorrow at the district PWD, finish my car for the PWD's leader's competition at the end, and prep for my TC den meeting on Monday.

[BulldogBlitz]

"it's a bauble who cares"...

 

while i agree on a very low level to that. i will also point out, if you work for the same company for a few years and they never recognize you.... they never give you even a raise... would you be disgruntled?

 

aside of that, the entire program is about getting a patch for doing something (whether it is attendance at an event, membership at a council, or skills). don't like the baubles, don't wear the baubles.

 

on topic now:

 

several have already pointed out that there are clear lines on some awards.