Knots? Dual service tenure ?

[WestCoastScouter]

Ok... having some discussions with another leader on knots.

 

Please let me know if I am right or wrong.

 

You cannot earn your Den Leader and Cub Scouter Knot during the same time session. Must earn one knot, and then start again a new period on the 2nd knot.

 

However, if you are a Den leader and say District Committee member, you can earn Den Leader Knot, and say the Scouter Key Knot, since they are completey different areas of scouting... (not the same activities as a leader)

 

?? help?(This message has been edited by westcoastscouter)(This message has been edited by westcoastscouter)

[SctDad]

As per the Cub Scout Den Leaders award card

 

"Complete one year as a registered Cub Scout den leader. (Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award.)"

 

So, you cannot use the time to earn the Den Leader Award AND Scouter KEY.

 

Sorry.

 

[jstephens42]

Tenure in a single registered position only counts once. Although you can be registered in multiple positions. An example would be a DL and a District Committee Member. You would track your DL time and District Committee time separately. Being a Den Leader should not conflict with your ability to do your duty on the District Committee. The person should show up on both rosters and have filled out two applications.

 

Clear as mud?

[Buffalo Skipper]

I became an adult leader of our Cub Scout Den back in 2003. I earned the CM award in 2005, after which I spent a year working toward the Cub Scouter award. A year later, I became the Pack Trainer as a Wood Badge ticket item; by chance the award came out a couple of months later, so with 1 year toward the Cub Scouter Award, I began working on the 2 year tenure of the Pack Trainer Award. After that, I had stepped into a Den Leader position, where after a year I earned the Den Leader Award. Now that my den has crossed to Boy Scouts, I am again registered as the Pack Trainer, and I still have another 6 months to complete the Cub Scouter Award (service time must total 2 years in any position, but need not be concecutive).

[AlFansome]

 

WCS-

It's an interpretation thing. The only sentences that directly address this are like the one that SctDad points out from the award's progress record:

 

"Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award."

 

This has been discussed before on the board and the majority opinion then was that if you are in multiple, registered positions in different units (or at the district level), then you basically have two or more tenure "clocks" running at the same time. So, time in as a District Committee member would count towards that knot and time as a Cub Leader would count towards a Cubbing knot, even if you hold both position at the same time.

 

As an example, I'm a new ASM in my son's troop and also continuing on as the Pack Trainer in the pack my son just bridged out of. IMHO, I could work towards both the Scouter's Training Award and the Pack Trainer Award at the same time. Some would disagree.

 

The one thing we can all agree on (I think) is that you can't double-dip and try to count one year as Den Leader towards BOTH the Den Leader Award and the Cub Scouter Award.

 

[Eagle92]

Here are my thoughts. While I say if you are in multiple positions in multiple units, i.e. dist and pacl, troop and crew, etc. you SHOULD be able to have 2 different time clocks per position, somewhere in the national literature there is a policy stating that it's a no no.

 

Again it si somwher in the national literature, and unfortunatley I don't chapter and verse on it. We ahd that come up a few years back.

[WestCoastScouter]

I would like to thank everyone for their comments...

 

It looks like the key here is the interpretation of the phrase, "Dates of service used to earn this award". That phrase is just below the language that says for example, "Complete 2 yrs. as a registered adult leader in Cub scouting in a pack."

 

So in my opinion, the "dates of service" relates to the type of position. So that when you are a Cub Scout Leader you can earn only one knot at a time... As a Boy Scout Leader you can earn only one knot at a time, as a District member you can earn only one knot at a time... but that if you volunteer in completely different positions... i.e. A cub den leader, and the District Commissioner... then there is no conflict of "double dipping" your time.

 

Thoughts?(This message has been edited by westcoastscouter)

[Twocubdad]

I disagree. "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award." That seems remarkably clear, especially by BSA standards.

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

I think that WCS is on the right track. As a District Commissioner and a District Chairman, I signed off on cards for people working in different parts of the program (Cubs, Scouts, Venturers, District or Council) at the same time. There is nothing wrong with having multiple clocks running in different programs, just not two in the same program. They're doing the job, serving the time in a particular position and deserve the appropriate recognition.

 

To me, "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award." applies to someone trying to use the same tenure (double-dipping) for something like the Den Leaders Award and the Cub scout Award, not being active at the pack and district level.(This message has been edited by NE-IV-88-Beaver)

[83_Eagle_T148]

Unless one of the awards specifically states otherwise, tenure can be used toward multiple awards that are apropriate to you position. Please note the Den Leader does state you can't use the tenure time for that award for any other award.

[Basementdweller]

I believe all of the Cub knots state Registered for position. As a person can only register for only one position with in a pack at a time then one knot per person. With that said you can hold positions in multiple Packs. I have stepped up and been a den leader for a Pack other than my sons.

[Twocubdad]

Everyone is entitled to their own intrepretation. If your district approves of the "mutiple clock" theory, I certainly don't have standing to complain. But in my own modest opinion, this mutiple clock stuff is cut from whole cloth.

 

Again, "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award" seems pretty clear. Can anyone provide written documentation backing up an exception?

 

 

[WestCoastScouter]

I think we should look at the reason for the rule... the spirit of the law so to speak...

 

Isn't it to prevent double dipping? Fulfilling multiple requirements with identical service?

 

The only reson I could see for such a strict interpretation would be to require a scouter to volunteer "longer" in time, meaning he had to work at it for a longer period of time... keeping him around.

 

both arguments make some sense.

[emb021]

"Again, "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award" seems pretty clear. Can anyone provide written documentation backing up an exception?"

 

There is a documented exception to that for Scoutmasters who can earn both the Scouter's Training Award and Scouter's Key concurrently. Basically, they can earn the STA while they work to earn the SK. In fact, earning the STA is one of the requirements for the SK. STA is done in 2 years, SK in 3 (in a 5 year period).

 

Sadly, they don't have this documented for Venturing Advisors, which should be the same for them.

 

 

[Basementdweller]

This series of links will prove it. Read under tenure

 

This link says complete one year as registered tiger cub leader

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34169-50.pdf

 

This link says complete one year as cub scout den leader

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34169-51.pdf'>http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34169-51.pdf

 

This link says complete one year as webelos den leader.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34169-51.pdf

 

 

Anyone who recharters knows you cannot register in more than one direct contact position per pack or troop or crew.