Moving to BS without Arrow of Light

[nolesrule]

The problem is that just being a Cub/Webelos Scout isn't enough of a credential to prepare you for Boy Scouts. How much did the youth actually get out of the program while in Webelos? How prepared is he to transition?

 

It's the Arrow of Light that is used as the benchmark for early entry into the more advanced program. It's the nationally accredited certification (so to speak) that says a boy is ready to begin a program designed for ages 11 through 17 without yet being 11.

[Lisabob]

I find it interesting to see how this conversation is progressing.

 

I would say that there is seldom or never a "too bad, we don't need you" attitude. At least, I have never seen or heard that sort of attitude from any troop leaders, and since I spent a few years on our district membership team(focusing in particular on webelos-scout transition), I did talk to a lot of troop leaders about this stuff.

 

The thing I have seen is that there are different perspectives on this issue from the cub, and from the troop, end of the program. Many cub packs do use cross-over as the end of the Webelos II program. Many W II leaders *are* burned out and counting the days til the end of their tenure. Many do not have a good option to replace them and so they stay to help their boys get to cross-over, but they're really ready to be done with it. In packs like that, which are quite common, getting a W II den leader to stay around for another 4-6 months is a tall order. And if it is only one or two boys who aren't crossing over, it is also rather impractical. I know - I did it.

 

So, from the cub end, there's pressure to move the boys up together because of programmatic weaknesses, tired leaders, not wanting to strand one or two boys while the rest move on, etc. Not to mention that, in many packs, the boys (and parents, and leaders) have grown accustomed to a system where the boys *have* advanced together for 4-5 years, and it seems odd not to do so at the very end of the cub experience. Maybe even unfair, in some eyes.

 

Now on the boy scout end. Troops already include a huge range of boys, ages 10-18, with a huge range of experiences. It becomes quite a challenge to broaden that further, and troop leaders worry that boys who lack the AoL will also lack any basic sense of what it means to be outdoor-oriented. The boys with the weakest skills are often the same boys who struggle and are miserable on their first few camp outs, with the result that many of them may quit scouting early on, before they ever find their comfort zone. At least by waiting until the end of 5th grade (or age 11), those boys might have matured a little bit and be more ready to tough things out. All of us who have worked with this age group know that the difference 4-6 months makes at that age can be quite a lot. Also, the requirements for AoL mirror many requirements for Scout and Tenderfoot, so a boy who has AoL is likely to advance a bit more quickly at first - feeding a sense of success and keeping him involved in the program.

 

So, from the troop end, they're (hopefully) prioritizing based on what works for new boys entering the program. They're not thinking about things from the same place as many cub leaders.

 

This doesn't make either side right or wrong. There are holes to be poked in both sides' arguments (we could quibble about whether boys who have the AoL actually learned anything, for example). But I think it is better to recognize that there are different perspectives based on real needs and experiences, than to suggest that anybody is actively trying to send the message that they don't want new scouts, or that Webelos den leaders are somehow being intolerably selfish by saying they're done after cross-overs.

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Well I was goign to comment, but Lisa stole my thunder I concure 110% with Lisa's assessment form the troop perspective. Been there and seen it happen.

[Lisabob]

Sorry about that Eagle92... here's your thunder back (handing it over)...

 

 

[MNBob]

Lisabob: nice reply

 

I can understand that Webelos scouts who did not earn Arrow of Light could, on average, be less likely to continue in Boy Scouts than those Webelos who earned Arrow of Light. I'm just not sure I understand that Jimmy the 5th grader who turned 11 in January but didn't earn his Arrow of Light is any more ready to join Boy Scouts than Billy the 5th grader who turns 11 in May.

 

says a boy is ready to begin a program designed for ages 11 through 17 without yet being 11I guess for me it boils down to whether or not it is really designed for boys age 11 or is it designed for 5th graders, or more specifically what I'm arguing, 5th graders in March.

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

Sorry that my perspective didn't come across the way I intended. If you look around, you will see many adult leaders in the programs long after their sons have bridged over or aged out. I know that I did it as both a Cubmaster and a Scoutmaster for at least two years after my sons were out of the pack and troop and have served in a variety of positions for another twenty years. I know many others who have done the same. That is what I meant by talking about being in it for all the boys, not just your child. With that perspective in mind, I don't think that it is unreasonable to think that the W2DL should be willing to work with all of the boys until they are finished. I often say myself that it is designed as an eighteen month program, but there is nothing officially that states that. It is still a two year program with an early opt-out provision.

 

Sorry, but that's just my opinion! Remember, everyone's entitled to one!

[Stosh]

Another dynamic which is often overlooked is the fact that the AOL guys come into the troop in Feb and get 5-6 months to get ready for summer camp their first summer. The non-AOL boys wait until they are out of 5th grade in June and gets 5-6 WEEKS to get ready for summer camp their first summer.

 

That's got "failure" written all over it. You're noticed as not having gotten the AOL, you got shortened prep time for camp, and all the other boys that used to be in your W2 den are already a rank or two up on you, and that kind of pressure on any kid of any age just isn't going to work well in the long run and by the end of summer they are making plans for something other than continuing the bad first impression they got in Boy Scouts.

 

Just because a boy has gotten his AOL does NOT mean he has to cross over. He can wait along with his non-AOL buddies and cross over at the end of the 5th grade as a den.

 

I'd say get AOL at Blue/Gold, and then enjoy it along with the spring Pinewood Derby and all the other fun things for Cubs. If they miss out on camp the first summer, no big deal, do a nice weekend orientation campout for them that isn't going to cost the parents $$$'s to fork over at the last minute because their son did not get a chance to raise money for camp during the year.

 

There are a lot of excuses being tossed around as to how this transition shakes out and blame passed on to W2DL's who didn't get the boys ready, to age maturity issues, to financial, to time constraints, to they weren't interested in Boy Scouts anyway.

 

Until people recognize these dynamics, the attrition is going to always stay high for the boys, and unfortunately it will be the boys who will miss out.

 

Stosh

[Lisabob]

There are so many dynamics here that it really not possible to come up with a one size fits all solution. For example, Stosh is absolutely right that boys do not have to cross over just because they have received their AoL. They certainly could wait to the end of the year and cross over at that time. As a Webelos DL, that was something I thought made a lot more sense, and not least because Feb, March, and even April can be among the toughest camping conditions up here in the frozen north. Throwing brand new scouts who aren't used to camping and often as not, lack the proper gear for winter camping, into that situation isn't an obvious winner in my mind.

 

On the other hand... many troops greatly prefer Feb and March crossovers to June crossovers. They also really want the boys to go to summer camp with the troop, that first year, because the boys who do tend to come back in the fall. They boys who don't are at a higher likelihood of dropping scouts and not returning at all in September. And many 5th graders are tired of cub scouting and really ready for a new adventure. Making them all wait until the end of 5th grade would probably mean losing the ones who are mentally done with being cubs. In fact at other times on this forum, we have debated whether or not Webelos ought to truly be a one year program and not an 18 month (or, as now suggested, a 2 year) program.

 

There are ways around all of this, I am sure, but we come back again to the fact that standard practices among packs and troops in your area can create structural barriers to doing things differently, colliding with the fact that sometimes doing things differently is really what would be the best for one or more of the boys. The answer tends to get a little messy when that happens. The best thing is for pack and troop leaders and parents to communicate openly about each individual case, and then to be a little flexible.

[MNBob]

Just because a boy has gotten his AOL does NOT mean he has to cross over. He can wait along with his non-AOL buddies and cross over at the end of the 5th grade as a den.Ultimately I think this discussion boils down to what is the proper length of a Webelos program?

 

Our Pack has always functioned with Webelos starting June 1 after 3rd grade and running until Feb/March of 5th grade. Cross over date depends completely on the Troop receiving the Scouts but in every year that I have been involved that has either been in February or March. Last year was the first year where cross over did not occur at our Feb B&G because the receiving Troop wasn't ready until March. This year our B&G was pushed into March (this Sunday) because of venue availability.

 

My limited perspective comes from how our Pack works and how Troops around here work. I've been surprised to see comments in other threads about how some boys will cross over in November or December of 5th grade while other Packs wait until May. I've always thought we did it the "correct" way and the training I've been to didn't convince me otherwise. However now I'm trying to look to find the official length of the Webelos program and I'm having trouble finding information on www.scouting.org. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/ImprovedWebelosTransition.aspx just talks about Packs and Troops coordinating for smooth transition (fluff with no substance imo).

 

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/webelos/webelos-scouts.asp says it's a 20 month program which fits with my understanding that it ends around February of 5th grade if the start date is considered June 1 after 3rd grade.

 

It seems silly that's it's so hard to find an official answer. I'll have to check back in the handbook to see if it mentions the program length.

[Eagle92]

MN,

If memory serves, the literature will say that Webelos is an 18-24 month long program. That's because there is a lot of local variation to the program.

 

Some units, and from what I've seen usually the older units with a very long history, still do the AOL and Crossover in May. This stemsf from back inthe day when CS was a 3 year program, mostkly followed the school year, and it took 9 months to earn the AOL. It is a tradition to have that doen in May and no one is going to ruing a 50+year tradition.

 

Some units opt for the BnG to award the AOL and Crossover to Scouts. Again if memory servies this stems from the literature when Webelos was expanded into a 2 year program and the recommendation was for it to occur at BnG. Again this is if my memory is correct, especially since I was onteh BS side of this when this occured.

 

I want to beleive that it was tweaked to 18 months b/c national found that some cubs were completing the AOL in the 18 month time frame, and by waiting 2-3 months to receive the award and Crossover were leaving the program b/c they were bored.

 

So becuase of all the changes over the years, as well as local variations, national came up with the 18-24 month programwith no hard and fast deadlines.

 

BUT then again with CUB SCOUT 2010 coming out in May, that may change?

[Basementdweller]

All this debate is silly,

 

It boils down to the individual Scout. AOL 11, 10, 10.5 or graduated 5th grade.

 

I have seen 12 year old's melt down and a weekend camp home sick.

[mikecummings157]

Our troop, with district concurrence, has waived this requirement for a few boys in the last several years. Having the boy wait or otherwise not be a full member of the troop with his buddies is taking a big risk that he will lose interest in scouting. As long as the boy's maturity level is reasonable, bring him in and get him going. The AOL is good preperation, but we end up going through all of the basic scout skills with all new boys anyway.

[Eagle92]

Mike,

District's can't change advancement policy. ALSO SCOUTNET will not allow someone to be registered as a scout until A) in 5th grade, it's Dec 1st at the earliest, and they earned the AOL

 

B)They are 10.5yo, and earned AOL irregardless of grade ( so a 10.5yo 4th grader in may can earnit and cross over)

 

C)They are 11, irregardless of age.