Scouts Fighting

[jr56]

I would have sent the kid home. The next meeting would have been a meeting of all the kids involved. If the kid or any of the others involved did not see the error of their ways, and express remorse, they would be gone. Assault cannot be tolerated.

[Mafaking]

 

"I would have sent the kid home."

 

I didn't so move off of that.

 

This is still real time. I can push this on the PLC, hold an BOR Inquisition. Suspended him from campouts for six month, have him write a letter.....

 

 

[Eamonn]

"This is still real time. I can push this on the PLC, hold an BOR Inquisition. Suspended him from campouts for six month, have him write a letter..... "

 

The G2SS States:

Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

 

The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members.

 

The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit.

 

The role of a SM is to provide the program.

 

 

No where is it laid down that a PLC should act as a judge and jury for a Scout.

 

A BOR??

Not sure where that one came from?

Maybe a Scoutmaster Conference to determine the facts.

 

Strange thing about the stuff the BSA puts in their publications is that when followed. -It tends to work.

Eamonn.

 

[Gunny2862]

Realizing that ADHD, ADD and Aspergers are all spectrum disorders.

My wife and I never once allowed our knucklehead with (ADHD) to ever think that ANY physical altercation with ANYONE would EVER be considered to be excused by the effectiveness, or lack of, his medication.

 

And we've never had the issue.

 

I KNOW not everyone's circumstances are the same, BUT, I also hear "Well, little Johnny has a diagnosis..." way too many times as an excuse for "I don't want to be bothered to parent my child."

 

Guiding and Mentoring should not be exclusive to Scouting.

[Mafaking]

 

"A BOR??

Not sure where that one came from?"

 

Horizon Mentioned it!

 

Eamonn From your cut and paste it would be a committe function to review this. Would you not consider a BOR a committe's approach to relating to the scout? Or would you prefer the accused be brought before the whole committee, COR and all for questioning. Certaining a sub group of adults woul;d be prefered. Yes?

 

As far as the PLC, isn't not true that the best monitoring of behavior comes from their peers? Or should the SM be the cops?

[acco40]

Eamonn, getting the SPL/PLC involved is not mutually exclusive to what is stated in the G2SS. I'm not unaware or in disagreement with what is in the G2SS.

Yes, the adult leaders should take immediate action to ensure safety. Parents of the Scouts involved should be contacted. However, I feel sometimes the adults are too quick to "remedy" the situation and don't give the youth leadership a chance to deal with it at all.

 

At summer camp one year, the camp ranger was giving hay rides (tractor pulled a hay filled cart) around the five square miles of camp. It was an extracurricular evening activity so to speak. The troop was given the opportunity and all Scouts interested and a few of the adults gathered until the ranger came by. We found that there was barely enough room for the boys if no adults accompanied them - except for the tractor driver. So I, as Scoutmaster, talked to the SPL and he and I agreed that the Scouters would stay in camp so that the maximum number of Scouts who wanted to participate could.

 

Well, an hour or so later they returned and the driver said they were unruly in so many words. They were throwing hay, jumping on and off the wagon, etc. I talked to the SPL and he confirmed what the driver said. I was angry and a little embarrassed by the behavior of the Scouts and so was the SPL. He asked me if he could take care of it. If gave him permission after reviewing it with him. He had the offending Scouts (nobody argued about the who the offenders were - and there were about 5-7 Scouts) stand at attention with him for an extended period of time - close to 10 minutes. Was this corporal punishment? It's arguable but I okayed it.

 

The end result - he gained the respect of the entire youth and I considered the case closed. If I had started an inquisition, called parents, etc. I think the result would have been much different and much less successful.

 

The boys go through stages of development. First, they need to learn how to take care of their own behavior - i.e. be good followers. Once that is mastered, we need to let them experience how to be leaders - i.e. how to take care of the behavior of others. How can they accomplish that if we adults constantly step in to rectify every trouble spot?

(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Horizon]

Eamonn:

 

This part of G2SS is what I was using in my recommendation of a BOR (someone else added the inquisition descriptor):

 

"The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit. "

 

Fighting counts as a serious incident of misbehavior in my opinion.

 

The BOR should never be an inquisition - be it for rank or behavior. However, finding out ALL of the facts is critical here. Now - perhaps you don't thing a unit committee review of of the actions to be a BOR - I do. I want to talk to the Scouts, find out what happened, find out what instigated it, and then discuss possible corrective courses of action.

[AlFansome]

From the BOR Training Module at http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/TrainingModules/BoardofReviewTraining.aspx:

 

"Some reasons to have a board of review may include a Scout's lack of advancement, perceived trouble in the troop, or a certain event at the last campout or troop meeting. Ideally, a Scout should sit for a board of review every six months, whether he is advancing or not."

 

 

[evmori]

And will we also eject the boy who jumped the special needs scout?

 

Yup. He goes home, too. But he doesn't get suspended because he was defending his fellow Scouts.

 

No one has suggested corporal punishment, Eamonn. There is no need for for that!

 

 

 

 

[QuekolisChief]

I would have to say that this is a matter for the PLC, Scoutmaster, and the Assistant Scoutmasters. I think it is important for the scouts to learn that what they did was wrong, BUT if you go to HARSH such as kicking them out they might just keep that mentality up. Isn't scouts suppose to develop good characteristics in the scouts, I know that every scout matures and gets better at following the scout oath and law, some faster then others. Just make sure that you talk to the scouts about what is happening.

 

I had a similer case were I was camping with another troop and one of thier kids were jumped by another troops Patrol Leader. The jumped kids SPL took care of it by talking to the SPL and scoutmaster alone, and it turned out just fine. I think the scouts knows what happens for then the adults so they will be able to give the best course of punishment.

[Mafaking]

 

"I would have to say that this is a matter for the PLC, Scoutmaster, and the Assistant Scoutmasters"

 

This is the direction I will likely take. The SPL is a very level headed scout and extremely analytical. He will approach this logically. Plus I need/want these scouts to self monitor. If a SM has to be 30' away at all times it is not exactly fostering self reliance.

 

 

[Eamonn]

"Or would you prefer the accused be brought before the whole committee, COR and all for questioning. Certaining a sub group of adults woul;d be prefered. Yes?"

What I might prefer has nothing to do with it!

I'm not on that Committee.

The youth leaders are tasked with providing the program.

The management committee takes care of discipline.

How they choose to go about this? Would be up to the Committee Chair.

If I were the COR I would really want to know what was going on, so that I could warn the CO of any lightly consequences.

 

Re "Cops"??

Of course the adult leadership need to inform the committee of what they think happened.

If the committee feel that they need more information, they can go about getting it the best way they think will work.

They might just have the Chair go and talk with the boys involved one on one or they might ask the boys to attend a meeting and ask them there.

Bottom line is that it is their baby. - Let them do their job and deal with it.

 

 

I have to admit to not understanding what:

"Certaining a sub group of adults woul;d be prefered. Yes?"

Means??

Ea.

 

[Mafaking]

 

 

"I have to admit to not understanding what:

"Certaining a sub group of adults woul;d be prefered. Yes?"

Means??

Ea. "

 

My apologies, I ran out of time to get that thought out. I was called to dinner.

 

What I meant; our committee consists of about 20 some people. Its more of a parents club than a committee. I don't want to present this particular scout or any scout in front of 20 adults all of which could fire a question at him at any time. Little good would come from a forum like that. A smaller sub group would be preferable, something like a three member board.

 

The point I was trying to make about the cops:

Self monitored youths is the concept I was attempting to make. For example: ideally the SPL or a senior scout would break-up or diffuse the situation without an adult having to be present. The goal is to have well mannered youths who recognize when situations are going bad and step in to provide leadership and moral stability when an adult is not there.

 

That is, the scouts don't require a Constable (read SM) on ever corner to keep the peace.

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

Having the Committee deal with it?

 

This of course doesn't have to mean the entire committee. Unless of course that's how they want to go about it.

One Committee member could do a fact finding and report back to the full committee, allowing them to take whatever action they deem to be right.

 

I'm still not getting this "Cop" thing!

Having been the SM of a large Troop, with at times as many as 14 Patrols in camp. I of course was never able to be everywhere at once.

I hold to the idea that if we want the Scouts to be Trustworthy we need to trust them. I also like to think that one of the big things a SM does is the training of the P/L's.

There have been times when I've seen things not going as they should. A Patrol at sixes and sevens, arguing and not getting anything done. The temptation is for me at times too step in and take control of the situation.

I, when this happens stop myself and let them work it out.

Some might say this is a dangerous thing to do. But this is where the trust comes in, along with the training that the PL or SPL has had.

Sure there have been times when things just don't work out and a couple of Scouts get into it.Most times the end result is more of a pushing match than what I'd call a "Real Fight".

As SM I'm then faced with what to do?

Nine times out of ten, just allowing a little time to pass and tempers to cool and then just talking with the Scouts is all that is needed.

I've seen Lads who seemed one minute to be ready to fight. After a very short while be happy to work together and forget what the problem ever was.

This is just kids.

But when things take on a more serious side and it seems that no amount of talking or listening is going to work. The best thing is to remove the Scouts from the event. If possible have a Parent pick them up and then inform the committee.

Only the Committee working with the CO can remove a Scout from a Troop.

Having the committee take whatever action they see as fitting also means that the SM shouldn't be seen as playing favorites, or that he is picking on anyone.

B-P talked about the SM being like an older big brother to the Scouts. This would be really hard if the brother was the guy who was dishing out the discipline and punishing the Scouts.

 

I agree with what others have said about not using ADD or ADHA as an excuse for bad behavior.

But just as we might train the Scouts in the Troop how to work with a Scout who has a physical handicap, we can too the best of our ability go about training our Scouts how to deal with and work with a Lad who is challenged this way.

 

From what you have posted this Lads father seems like a nice fellow?

I would bet without too much of a push his name could be given to the committee with a view to them inviting to serve the Troop as an ASM.

eA.

[IM_Kathy]

ok I know it's all basically and done with, and my son's troop has not had this issue at such a level. But with reading all this I've put some thoughts together...

 

typically there are at least 3 adults on our campouts and while sometimes 1 is the SM or ASM the rest are usually committee members. So right when this were to happen in the future you need to stop it as soon as possible, and then seperate the boys to get them calmed down. Then have them each have a turn to come before the adults and the SPL or ASPL that is camping there and explain what happened. From that I would discuss among the adults and SPL/ASPL what should be done. Then bring the boys back one at a time and address them with what will happen for the rest of the campout and what will happen at the next troop meeting:

 

"We believe that the severity of the behavior that you should be sent home for the rest of this campout, and we will ask you and your parent/guardian to come and talk with us at the next meeting about any further punishments"

 

"We are concerned about your behavior, but so far think that you can stay as long as you correct your behavior, but we will want to talk with you and your parent/guardian next meeting to go over what needs to be done as we move forward"

 

oh, and when the boys come forward and have different stories... I'd bring them back individually again, and if the story is still different then obviouslly someone is lying and I'd add that into not following the law with that too.

 

while it's bad that this happened, I do thank you for sharing it because it has given at least me something to think about before it happens - though I hope it never does.