Another way of looking at knots.

[Scoutfish]

Any favorite knots out there?

 

Jsst some rambling on my part.

 

Right now, I'm STILL trying to get my son to get a handle on tying his shoes. he's nine years old and does know how to tie them, but just doesn't put in much effort. He goes through the motions, but the knots are loose at best. His mom practically reties his shoes each morning and them puts in a double knot to keep them tied all day.

I stopped tying his shoes. I told him that I'm not doing it any more! I feel like he should have mastered this years ago.

 

My son says that they come loose when he ties them and he just keeps tying them over and over all day long.

 

I say GOOD! It means he's getting practice . I told him that if he actually tried a little harder and gave half an effort more, he might tie them tight enough to last all day.

 

SO. I used to be a volunteer fire fighter/rescue/water rescue man. Knots, knots, knots! Used them all the time. Our fav's were becket bend, half hitch, sheeps bend and clove hitch. On rare occasion, we might even use a square knot, but I really can't remember when. We also used what we called a "Docking knot" which isn't a knot but a constantly inverted loop over a dock bolister to keep a boat from drifting away.

 

Anyways, (this is where it all ties in together) during one of my firefighter classes where we were learning some of these knots... a fellow student complained and said to the instructor that he might have to skip the knot part because it was just to damn hard to learn.

 

This is what the instructor said:

 

"What knot is the hardest to tie?"

 

The student said something about one of the knots. Our instructor said that he was wrong!

 

He said there was this one knot that almost everybody had trouble tying. It took a long time to learn and it was sooooo agrrivating to learn that some of us broke down into tears over it.

 

Then he went on to say that we all knew how to tie that knot without even thinking about it. We could do it in the dark, behind our backs and possibly with just one hand. Sometimes we did it without even knowing we were tying that knot.

 

What was that knot?

 

A standard shoelace knot!

 

Yeah, we looked at learning how to tie knots differently after that too!

[Beavah]

Yah, I don't know. Mrs. Beavah claims that there was another knot that took a while to tie. Been a darned sticky knot that's stayed tied for a long time, too

 

We also used what we called a "Docking knot" which isn't a knot but a constantly inverted loop over a dock bolister to keep a boat from drifting away.

 

Yah, hmmm... I think yeh mean a cleat hitch, eh? But yeh don't constantly invert it.

 

 

Lots of young fellows tie granny knots when they're tyin' their shoes instead of tying square knots. I'd check what your young fellow is doin' if he keeps comin' untied, especially if mom taught him.

 

My favorite knot is the Munter Hitch. What a remarkably simple and interestin' fellow that is.

 

Another favorite is the trucker's hitch for tyin' down a load.

 

B

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[OldGreyEagle]

I remember I was new to a job and within the first months on the job came the company pic-nic. Well the main recreation was a volleyball tournament. The problem was the net wasn't set up very well and when people would fall in the net, over the poles would go and then there was great whining and gnashing of teeth until it got set-up, only to have the whole experience repeated within the next five minutes or so. After the 5th time or so, I went sauntered over to the poles, tied a taut line hitch on the lines that previously only had been wrapped around the anchoring stake and tightened it up. As I was tieing the knot, one big lug reeking of beer and brats says rather loudly, "I've never see one of those (expletive deleted) knots hold". Well, the knots held. People still fell into the net, but then the set up was much easier, just tighten up the knots and we were ready. When the day was through the big lug says as we were taking down the net, "Like I said, I've never seen one of those knots hold, until today", I answered "maybe because until today you never saw an Eagle Scout tie one". The place got quiet, the big lug laughed, "I guess so" and I was relegated knot tieing duties from then on. But, they always held.

 

[Gags]

Water knot (I find it more secure than a square knot) and also the Sheepshank. Variation of the Sheepshank is the trumpet knot. Looks almost identical, but tied slightly different ways, and is not always mentioned in knot books. Other favorite is the thief knot - never had the need to use that one though - mostly replaced by the "masterlock" knot in locker rooms across the country. :-)

 

Thought's on the shoe lace issue - for some reason, it wasn't until a few years ago that I thought of tying your shoes as being similar to the square knot. I now realize that this is also the problem we have in teaching how to tie a square knot. Assuming we start teaching them at age 11, they've had 5+ years of tying a granny knot - it's a hard habit to break. My theory is that we all tend to be left or right hand dominant - for me, I usually start left over right. Then, when I make the "loops", I again start with the left hand, and go left over right and VOILA! Granny knot! (But the shoes are still tied, and off we go.)

 

Other benefit to tying a square knot for your shoes - the loops fall neatly across the shoe, rather than diagonal or up and down, making a much more uniform appearance. (Just in case you need more help in that job interview than just having "Eagle Scout" on the application).

 

I was just thinking about knots, or actually more the need for lashings in general as a scout skill - may have to spin this thought off to a new thread.

 

--Gags

[sailingpj]

'"We also used what we called a "Docking knot" which isn't a knot but a constantly inverted loop over a dock bolister to keep a boat from drifting away."

 

Yah, hmmm... I think yeh mean a cleat hitch, eh? But yeh don't constantly invert it.'

 

That knot is why I despise having other people help tie up my boat. Many of them do that five or ten times then it takes forever to untie it and do it right.

 

Now my favorite knot has to be the overhand knot. Even though I never use it on its own, it is the first knot I teach when doing a knot class. Everyone thinks that knots are going to be really hard, then you show them that they see that knots aren't that hard after all, many of them are based on the overhand.

[Buffalo Skipper]

I like to play with knots.

 

About the only thing I use a square knot for is what it is called in other parts of the world: reefing (reef knot). I also use it with a single piece of line to secure a bundle (just like reefing a sail).

 

I rarely use a sheet bend to join two lines. I always use a double-sheet bend, which is much more secure and less likely to come undone if the line is slackened repeatedly.

 

I teach a bowline to our scouts and show them dozens of uses for it. I always tell them not to tie it around their chest if they need to be rescued, as the weight of their body pulling the loop can break ribs. Once they master a bowline, learning a French or Portugese bowline is just one more step, and makes a nice double loop to sit in for an emergency hoist (bosun's chair). And like the double-sheet bend, I teach a water bowline to our scouts, as it provides superior holding underwater and will not untie itself when slackened.

 

We do a fair amount of boating, so I always teach the cleat hitch, which is done correctly only with a full turn around the cleat before beginning the underlooped figure eight.

 

Also when on a boat, I teach scouts the figure eight and encourage them to use it instead of an overhand knot; the overhand knot binds extremely tightly and can be difficult to untie, while the figure 8 loosens easily.

 

The tautline hitch is exclusively taught by the Boy Scouts of America, and is conspicously absent from nearly all non-BSA knot books. The rest of the world uses a different variation called a midshipman's hitch, which holds more stongly. The only difference between the two is that the last loop on the midshipmans hitch reverses direction, with the running end exiting outward instead of in.

 

When I teach knots, I work hard to give the scouts real and practical uses they will encouter while camping, tieing down a trailer, making a tent guy or other common application. If you give them a purpose for a knot, I have found that they remember it better.

[Eamonn]

I enjoy messing around with rope and line.

 

The big problem with teaching Scouts knots is that we don't give the Scouts enough opportunity to use the knot for what is should be used for.

I have lost count of the number of Scouts who have joined the Ship, who are "Knot-Challenged" but when the not only learn how to tie the knot they also get to use it. The knot takes on being something important and of use, not just something that was needed to be done to get it signed off.

A few weeks back I was driving a van load of Sea Scouts on a fairly long drive.

I was kinda worried as they were being far too quiet! (I know all about this trustworthy stuff! But I don't trust quiet.) It turned out they were all trying to make little Monkey Fists. The week before I'd visited the Ship and we made some heaving lines.

Ea.

[Buffalo Skipper]

I really feel that for the BSA, knotting is addressed as a sterile activity (excluding Sea Scouting, Pioneering and possibly Climbing). Application is extremely important, which is why I also teach the different types of "tyings": knots, bends and hitches, shortenings and splices. To me, you can't understand how to tie something until you know what you are tying.

 

Knots are where the rope is tied to itself. Categories include:

Stopper knots (i.e. thumb knot, figure eight, monkey's fist)

Binding knots (i.e. reef (square) knot, surgeon's knot, whippings

and lashings)

Fixed loop knots (i.e. bowline, alpine butterfly)

Slip loop knots ((i.e. slip knot, running bowline)

 

Bends join the ends of two ropes. (i.e. sheet bend, carrick bend,

racking bend)

 

Hitches join the rope to an object.

Middle hitches (i.e. clove hitch, marlinspike hitch)

End hitches (i.e. timber hitch, two half hitches, rollling hitch)

 

Shortenings take up slack in a rope. (i.e. bellringers knot,

sheepshank)

 

Splices work with the constituent parts of the rope. (i.e. eye splice,

end splice, long and short splices)

 

 

Of course there are exceptions to any rule, something the English language excels at. For instance, the Fishermans Knot, ties together two pieces of rope so it is actually a bend; and the Fishermans Bend, which is often used to tie an anchor to a line is actually a hitch.

 

I have a great chart explaining all this. When the troop gets a website set up, we will include basic and advanced knot pages, but we arent there yet. I have about 35 MB of knot related files and charts on my computer.

 

[SSScout]

My father lost his left arm in an accident long before he even met my mom, so I only knew him with his one, strong right arm. He taught me many things; among them, how to tie my shoes. One handed.

Try it some time.

[le Voyageur]

a short list of my favorite knots...

 

Trucker's Hitch

Radium Release Hitch

Old Town Bowline

Blood Knot

Man O' War hitch

Alpine Equalizer

Grapevine

Water Knot

Figure 8 on a bight

Munter Mule

Garda

Prusik

Beer Knot

[Scoutfish]

A bloodknot is my go to fave for when I'm fishing. Didn't even think of that one.

I also use a "Rapala Knot" which is what Rapala lure company calls a bowline knoiw on the back of their lure boxes. But it works great when you want a fishing lure to *walk* in the water.

[Scoutfish]

A bloodknot is my go to fave for when I'm fishing. Didn't even think of that one.

I also use a "Rapala Knot" which is what Rapala lure company calls a bowline knot on the back of their lure boxes. But it works great when you want a fishing lure to *walk* in the water.

[skeptic]

Guess I am ignorant of proper knot use for shoes, as I have never used a square or granny knot to tie them; or at least not on purpose. We were taught to use a slip knot, or bow knot, and if we could not tie it tightly enough, secure it with a second one. You just pull one strand to undo it. Not sure why you would want one there that would very possibly get too tight.

 

Finding a way to make knots seem useful to kids today is difficult, as we use so many other types of attachment devices. A good example is the taut-line. They seem to not understand that the little tab device on the rope that stops back sliding can easily slip, or come off. But it takes a few extra seconds to actually tie something; and they do not want to take the extra time. Kind of like the shoes that are always coming undone. We are now encountering on occasion a bit of the same syndrome with compass work; many seem to think the GPS is the only thing they need, and that it is better. We all know, or should, that it is not only not always accurate, but sometimes simply does not work due to low power or blockage of signals.

 

Always new challenges.

[IM_Kathy]

glad to hear my son isn't the only one that has issues with tying shoes... and he's 14!!! He just doesn't care to mess with them for normal daily use - when he's play sports or hiking then he'll take his time and get it done right and continue to re-tie if they come loose.

 

the 1 knot I have issues with is the bowline - I can tie it one handed around my body with either hand, but to stand there and use both hands and show how it goes around some tree and through some hole --- nope, can't do it that way! So I leave that to others and will teach the one handed method

[Scoutfish]

Skeptic,

 

I have been laughed at for having a compass as well as a GPS

 

Other people ask me why I even need a compass.

 

First I tell them that a GPS doesn't work without power. Nor if they are in a bad signal area. Secondly, I tell them to stand still and tell me which way is north by using a GPS.

 

GPS only knows whats going on if you are moving. Some GPS need a bit of movement to configure.

 

Ask what happens if somebody gets stranded in a spot and then figure out if they are north, east, south or west ofthat landmark over there!