responsibilitite of the scout and scouter

[nattyB]

Hi all,

I would like some opinions on the following statement regarding OA loyalties:

I believe that a Scout or Scouters' first loyalty is always the Troop that he is registered to and that he has a responsibility to maintain active contact and participation in that Troop after he is elected into OA and starts to shift his focus more towards the OA program. I bring this up because it seems as if Scouts become active in OA and then think they are "too old" for the Troop activities or above them somehow. An OA member must be chartered through an active Troop, so doesn't that Troop have the right to expect the charted OA member to be active in the Troop also. A short way of saying this is that OA should not be a "replacement" for Troop participation. Thoughts?.....

[click23]

The troop is the scouts home, where he is registered. But, it is a two way street, the troop has to offer the boy a program that will keep him around. This is up the the PLC with advice and guidance from the scoutmaster, if the PLC is not doing the planning the troop has some deeper issues

[OldGreyEagle]

I have seen what Natty talks about, once the scout is in the OA, they are long gone from the Troop. Every year, the OA sponsors a station at the Fall Camporee and Klondike so many OA members sign up to be "Staff" so they don't have to pull a sled and then laugh at the "young guys" pulling the sleds and then go back to BS'ing with the other guys who have nothing to do except sit/stand along the fire and let the adults actually run the station. I thought the Arrowman's job was to render service to his troop and leaving them to part with fellow OA members is not my idea of service to a troop.

 

In my area, the OA is a social Club where the adults who don't have a clue get together with the youth who dont want to do anything combine to not do a whole lot, except make each other Vigil and then celebrate what grand scouts and scouters they are

 

So, its the troops fault if the OA member would rather goof with his buds? I thought we were dealing with the cream of the BSA, guess I was wrong

 

Oh, do I sound bitter? yes I am, I thought the OA had Lofty goals and aspirations and just dont see it. I hope other areas are better

[IM_Kathy]

my son just joined OA this past summer/fall... right now his loyalties are first to the troop especially since he is SPL. He was sad that he has to miss out on the winter OA campout because the troop has a campout that same weekend and his ASPL is booked with a band concert so he felt his duty was to the troop first.

 

Having just joined OA he doesn't know all about it and the special things they do... he is still working on getting his brotherhood and hopes to have that completed by summer camp.

 

Other than performing the ceremonies our OA members don't have a special privledge at camporees or derbies... so during the non-ceremony times they are all just scouts like everyone else.

[83_Eagle_T148]

What you describe is not new, I've seen it many times, and went through it myself as a youth member. I agree completely that any scout first duty is to his unit, so does the OA, it's even in the ordeal ceremony. The OA program is not the issue, just a symptom.

 

Consider that a traditional troop has youth members ranging in age from ten to eighteen years of age. The program for a ten year old is very different than the program for a seventeen year old. It is difficult for a troop to retain boys fifteen and up. Many of these older boys want to focus on, and explore, aspects of scouting more aligned with their age group. Frankly, the AO increases retention on older boys, but this is not it's purpose.

 

What these older boys need is Venture and/or Explorer type programs. In the end, the AO, Camp Staff, ect., will only delay them dropping out for so long. These boys need program for the correct age group. Also, keep in mind, some of this boys may be looking for non-high adventure program for older boys.

 

[nattyB]

Thank You all for your input. Although I can see all sides of the issue, my real concern is that, over the years, the Scouting program has shifted more towards "keeping the boys' interest" (read that "entertained"....) than teaching the boys to Live the Law, through participation in Troop activities. If that is done correctly (not a small task) it should be a self-fulfilling prophecy, as the boys grow and mature and begin to take more enjoyment in the accomplishments of the program, as opposed to "what have you got for me to do next?"

 

Yes, I understand that you need to keep the boys' focus before you can teach them the higher principles, but shouldnt one gradually replace the other to some degree, and isnt the OA on the higher end of that scale.

 

My point is that I believe the entire foundation of Scouting is Troop strength. it doesnt matter how fancy you keep building a house, if you keep taking bricks out of the foundation, the house will eventually fall. It seems that Counsels and "Professional Scouting" is so focused on adding the bells and whistles to the scouting program these days, thay they have forgotten to keep the foundation in good repair.

 

With so many distractions competing for the boys' focus, doesnt it make more sense to have a more effective Basic program (ie: the Scout Oath), than to have a Disneyland type program with more participants but fewer "True Scouts".

 

I truly believe that the Scout Oath is one of the most compelling group of words ever written. I fear that today's focus on "program" spends so much energy on "quantity", that it doesnt have the required energy left to maintain "quality".

 

Just some thought from an old woods rat. Keep the faith.

[dylfrick]

This is a quote take directly from the OA handbook:

 

"An Arrowman's primary responsibility is to the troop or team. It was your fellow Scouts who elected you to membership in the Order and it is to them that you should devote most of your service."

 

I believe that OA is a great opportunity for the older scouts, in conjunction with their troop. If they are not helping their troop out anymore than they are not truly upholding the principles of the OA.

 

[Eagle92]

I actually encountered the opposite problem growingup: OA didn't do things, BUT the troop did have an active a vibrant program for older scouts. This was during the Leadership Corps time frame. Also Out roop WAS Scoutled, with the PLC doign the work. Opportunities for older scouts away from the younger ones were incorporated when possible inot the troops outings Most of the time though, the older scouts were the ones runnging the program.

 

 

That said, I've seen what has been described happen too, maybe not to the degree described, but youth doing OA over troop. Sometimes I blame the adults for putting pressure on the Arrowman to do OA stuff over the troop. Heck I had some ribbing b/c I missed an OA Workday in order to get ready for Conclave, b/c my primary registrations, District committee, had me setting up for the district awards banquet.

 

But if you have an active program in a troop, the youth will stay.

[NJCubScouter]

Although I can see all sides of the issue, my real concern is that, over the years, the Scouting program has shifted more towards "keeping the boys' interest" (read that "entertained"....) than teaching the boys to Live the Law, through participation in Troop activities.

 

When it comes to boys over the age of 14, there really has been no "shift". The BSA has always had a problem maintaining the interest of older boys. There is a good synopsis here (http://www.troop97.net/bsahist2.htm) of the "older boy problem" and the various ways the BSA has tried to deal with it over the years -- starting with Sea Scouts almost at the very beginning, through Senior Scouts and the Leadership Corps when I was a Boy Scout, to the Venture Patrol today -- plus other opportunities outside the troop such as Exploring back in the old days, Venturing Crews today, plus through it all there has been the OA. Yes, ideally Scouts in the OA will remain active in their troop, but if the choice is between them being OA-only and leaving Scouting entirely, I would rather have them in the OA. Of course, to address OGE's point, if they are in Scouting only to be in the OA, they need to be doing what the OA is supposed to be doing, and not just hanging out. And the adults are a different story -- they need to be setting the example of being involved in their troops (or other Scouting positions) first, then the OA, except for those very few such as lodge advisers who can legitimately focus their efforts on the OA. (As for those who "don't have a clue", maybe it would be better if they just left.)

 

I don't really know whether my council has the same problems that OGE describes -- for whatever reason, my son's troop hasn't "done" OA for years, in fact I don't think there has been an election since he joined the troop, seven years ago. I was in the OA as a Scout but was never really active in it, and have not re-involved myself as an adult. The "older boy" focus in my son's troop is on an associated Venturing Crew, which I have my own feelings about, but that is another topic.

[desertrat77]

OA in many places is just as OGE described....

 

The OA can be an incredible avenue for boosting scouting overall, and troop retention specifically.

 

However, in my experience, many lodges are mutual admiration societies, where people who are elected to the Brotherhood of Honor Campers camp indoors during OA events and their primary focus is collecting patches.

 

It's all about service...if the lodge isn't serving somebody or something--camporee, natural disaster, their troop--then it's just a club and really not worth the effort.

 

But when a lodge does apply the principles of the founding fathers of OA, the results are sublime...and the scouts are ready for the challenge, but as always, it's the advisors and associated old timers that enjoy the clubhouse theory that aren't too eager to get out and associate with the non-Arrowmen (to borrow a dated phrase!).....(This message has been edited by desertrat77)