what *do* we allow youth leaders to decide?

[ScoutBox]

Have to agree with what's already been said. One thing I see from my Troop is that some of the Scout Leaders don't take their jobs seriously. That is starting rom the Adults down to the PLs, & APLs. I find myself the only ASM showing up to meetings wearing a uniform, and talking with the boys about leadership. I had a situation this past weekend where we were in a small Mountain Chalet, and the SPL, and ASPL were cooking up breakfast first, and the other boys were running late getting things done. I took the SPL aside, and let him know that he as a Leader should never eat first. He should make sure that the younger boys are first to eat, and that he as myself should always be last.. same as the PLCs, the SM isn't as serious as I believe a SM should be.. he's a great guy, but due to the fact that he's not an American, it seems that he doesn't take the BSA serious, and the boys see this and follow his lead.. I don't know how to fix this.. but I know that I am up to take over from him at the end of Summer, but there is a fear that I am too serious about the job to lead.. anyway.. that's one problem I see.

[Eagledad]

>>but there is a fear that I am too serious about the job to lead..

[ideadoc]

Allowing youth leaders to make decisions does not absolve the adult volunteers from staying engaged, coaching the youth leaders, and, most importantly in my opinion, SETTING AND ENFORCING HIGH EXPECTATIONS. If the Patrol Leader's Council decides that every meeting should be ten minutes of lecture followed by an hour and twenty minutes of game playing, I don't think it is counter to the program for the adults to let the Patrol Leader's Council know that the expectations of the Troop are that there be more program, more patrol level activities, more hands-on stuff, etc. Every Senior Patrol Leader has their own personality, and some need nudging more than others. I have seen many adult volunteers shrug their shoulders and say "well, it's a boy run Troop" as an excuse to sit in their chair while boys lose interest and quit. I like Mark Ray's quote that Troops should be "boy run, but not boy run into the ground."

[Beavah]

I don't think it is counter to the program for the adults to let the Patrol Leader's Council know that the expectations of the Troop are that there be more program, more patrol level activities, more hands-on stuff, etc.

 

Yah, hmmmm...

 

I think it is. Counter to da program, that is.

 

I think if the adults are so unimaginative about how to help the lads develop a better program they probably need to think about some other volunteer gig. Telling 'em your expectations is about the least creative, least effective way to go about it.

 

The art of Scoutin' isn't about telling the scouts stuff, eh? It's about setting up da circumstances so that the boys are likely to learn - by example, by experience, by natural consequences, by reflectin'. I like Mark a lot, but boy-run-into-the-ground or "Lord of the Flies" or any of that malarkey doesn't really exist, eh? It's just what adults use as excuses for doin' something they know they shouldn't be doin'. Just that they don't have the imagination or experience yet to figure out what they should be doin' instead.

 

So if the lads just want to play games with meeting time, I think that's super, eh? A wise adult will think up an awesome game, one that requires some knowledge and some learning to do well. She'll recruit key lads into playin' by challengin' 'em, they'll play and struggle and get good, and they'll bring their friends in to play more and harder because now they understand how that thing is done and how much fun it is. Boys also love challenges, eh? A wise adult might also say "I bet yeh can't..." Make it a real bet, and a real challenge. Nuthin' gets kids goin' like someone tellin' 'em that they can't do something.

 

All kinds of 'em tricks, eh? Or, yeh can lecture 'em that good scouts work on advancement, hand out da books, and tell 'em to read chapter 3 for homework for the "hands on" bandaging lesson next week. That's what we call adult-run-into-the-ground .

 

Beavah

 

[IM_Kathy]

great ?'s Beevah

 

1) Do the youth leaders sign off on advancement requirements?

 

the boys teach the skills to the younger boys, when the younger boy has it down the other boy tells them they then come show off their skill to an adult to get it signed off.

 

2) Does the PLC set the calendar?

 

calendar in days we meet or camp - no we have set dates for meetings based on school schedule and how our troop works... and we camp 3rd weekend of the month except when camporees don't fall on that weekend and summer camp.

 

but they do fill in the calendar - they say what is going to go on during those meetings... they say what we will be doing on that campout.

 

3) Does the PLC set the budget for the troop, and determine how program money is spent?

 

it is all pretty much set from over the years the troop has been around, but if changes are needed in the boy's eyes then PLC discusses and brings to the committee

 

4) Can the Quartermaster dispose of or purchase gear on his own?

 

our youth QM records all items that are low, broken, out of... and any other recommendations... they communicate this to the committee member who oversees equipment -- if it's just a "this propane is empty" then the adult takes it and replaces it. if it's a "we need new stoves because we are down to only 2 working" or "we are building new patrol boxes and need newer stoves that will fit" then the QM is given the task to price them out and bring the info to the PLC and then the committee

 

5) Do the youth leaders have keys to the building/trailer/locker?

 

not on a daily basis... but on campout when trailer is in use then yes the QM is handed a set of keys.

 

6) Can the PLC add, subtract, or rewrite troop "policy" for youth members?

 

we've never had to so don't know on this one

 

7) Do the adults ever touch a stove/pot/shopping cart, or are the youth responsible for their own meals?

 

only when we cook our own meals

 

8) Does da SPL present the program to the Committee or does the SM?

 

SPL tells committee what the PLC has decided to do and then if adults have concerns they are shared then

 

9) How many times in the last year have yeh knowingly hiked or driven miles out of your way because the lads took a wrong turn and you let 'em?

 

any time it happens unless they are leading themselves into a dangerous situation (a trail with a big drop) or is getting so lost you are starting to get lost too LOL

 

10) If a boy suffers a minor injury, who does the first aid?

 

while you hate anyone getting hurt - it's always interesting to see who will jump first to perform the aid --- we adults never jump. heck boys caught a rag on fire on one trip and we didn't know until it was time to head home because the boys all took care of putting it out and treating the small minor burns on 2 of the scouts.

 

11) When an event is canceled, who makes the decision?

 

this is typically done by an adult because it's typically due to unsafe activities for the weather (flooding is making it too dangerous to canoe here) or the weather is unsafe to drive in (we've cut one trip short because had we not left early we wouldn't have made it home)

 

the canoeing type of the things the boys will often recognize on their own -- the condition of the roads they just don't seem to notice!

 

[ideadoc]

 

Well Beavah, thanks for your comments. From them I deduce that you believe me to be unimaginative, inexperienced and unwise. I respectfully disagree. There is a middle ground between 90 minute game night that makes my son want to quit the Troop and turning a Troop meeting into a schoolhouse lecture. Of course, the "wise adult" who thinks up an awesome game is not interfering with a boy led Troop, while an adult (the Scoutmaster in my opinion) who coaches the Senior Patrol Leader that expectations of planning engaging, active meetings that teach skills, are fun, and retain Scouts is overstepping her bounds. I didn't say that the adults planned or dictated what the activities were, just that it is not unreasonable for adults to communicate to the youth leadership when a meeting plan is not meeting the expectations of the Troop. Every time a new generation of Scouts reached the "older Scout" position (typically 9th grade in my experience) we have had to have "the talk" where they are reminded that their Scouting experience was made better by the efforts of older Scouts, and now they are the "older Scouts" and owe the same effort and energy that they got from the generation before them. This isn't interfering with a boy led Troop - this is teaching, coaching and mentoring a new generation of boys to realize the they are now the ones responsible for making the Troop run.

 

Beavah, I know little of your experience as a Scoutmaster and Scouter. I can only form my opinions based upon what you write. The most noticeable thing about your writing is your use of what I can only interpert as a "Southern dialect" and the annoying use of filler words...eh? As a native Southerner I find this somewhat insulting, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you either have served or are currently serving as a capable, caring, committed Scoutmaster who provides the guidance to allow boys to run an effective program. Please give me the same courtesy.

[JerseyScout]

Great set of questions. We are still in transition from "adult led (into the ground)" to "boy led", but we're making progress (to the point where my CC wants to kill me, which I started a thread about a few months back).

 

The list of questions Beavah provided was a great way to check that progress. No one needs to see me type my answers out, but we are a little further on that I thought, although we still have many things to work on.

[Beavah]

Yah, I apologized by PM to ideadoc. My comments were meant as feedback to the *idea* being presented, not the character of the person presentin' the idea. But my wordin' was inappropriate, so I'll repeat my apology here as well.

 

Ideadoc does provide some other stuff that I think is interestin' and worth respondin' to:

 

that it is not unreasonable for adults to communicate to the youth leadership when a meeting plan is not meeting the expectations of the Troop.

 

I think that's one way of approachin' it, and where many adults start. I'd encourage you to trust your boys more, though. Generally speakin', the lads are perfectly able to recognize the problems with a meeting plan after it's been tried. In fact, often they're better at it than the adults, eh? Just needs the adults to set up some structure so that they have a chance to think and reflect.... and to trust that they will see the problems on their own, and will come up with solutions to try.

 

That's the scoutin' way. We provide examples or seed ideas sometimes, but mostly buy 'em the space to reflect and revise and try again. Boys, they don't learn so much by the telling of expectations.

 

Every time a new generation of Scouts reached the "older Scout" position (typically 9th grade in my experience) we have had to have "the talk" where they are reminded that their Scouting experience was made better by the efforts of older Scouts, and now they are the "older Scouts" and owe the same effort and energy that they got from the generation before them.

 

So what I would ask you is "What is missing from your program in the 6th, 7th, and 8th grades that they don't already have that notion of service when they reach 9th grade?" Responsibility and service isn't somethin' that should wait until they become older boys, right? What can you do to teach what you want to teach with your program, instead of with "the talk"?

 

In scouting, we adults need to model what we expect of the kids, eh? Look at what isn't working as well as it could, reflect, come up with ideas, try something to make it better. Takes a lot more effort on our part!

 

That's what the list and this thread is for, eh? To challenge us as adult leaders not to be complacent, but to do a better job in all of our programs trusting the youth and usin' youth leadership method well.

 

The most noticeable thing about your writing is your use of what I can only interpert as a "Southern dialect"

 

Southern dialect? Yah, yeh must be jokin'! I'm a midwestern northern boy through - and - through, from beaver country. Yeh have to imagine the dialect in the movie "Fargo". Y'all down there in the south talk a lot better than me.

 

Beavah

 

[83_Eagle_T148]

What *do* we allow youth leaders to decide? ... This question strikes me as odd ..

 

Should we not be asking "when do we step in", as the boys should be deciding everything.

 

Our job as adult leaders is not to act as a controller, parceling small amounts of decision making to the boys. As adult leaders we should be observes, moderators, advisers, guidance councilors, and bringers of the reality check.

 

Let them run with all of it, and reign in as necessary. Growth requires space, and more than a bit of trial and error.

 

[Lisabob]

Yes of course the question is odd. The point I was trying to make is that I read (and see, and hear) a LOT about all the restrictions people place on the boys. The thread from which this was spun, someone commented that the adults had decided something and weren't about to let the PLC intervene.

 

To me, part of the gap between what scouting promises and what it delivers can be accounted for by the fact that many adults are uncomfortable letting the boys decide much of anything. It can be disappointing.