Choosing a troop

[AKdenldr]

Okay, son and his Web buddies are done with cub scouting. They and we (the families) have been visiting troops. We'd like the guys to continue on together. Boys have been at the same small school. Our pack is small also. Eagle is not the goal, however we tend to see advancement as a sign that the program is a healthy and good experience. Both programs seem to have lots of adult volunteers. The troop finalists are:

 

1) a very large troop with an experienced SM. Robust program and calendar. Patrols are large and they will be adding another. Boys would likely be split into different patrols. Lots of eagles, lots of teen leadership. Lots of camping.

 

2) smaller program. The Webs liked the boys better. Less experienced SM. Young eagles, but not many older boys active in the program. Boys would be in the same patrol. Half the camping -- but still plenty.

 

As tired den leaders we'd like a program where we can step back. But as parents we'd like a program where the boys get the attention and time they need to develop.

 

What would you do? Are there other questions I should be asking?

[Scoutfish]

I think that if I were in your position, I'd start out with troop #2 for at least the first year. Let the new scouts stick with the familiarty of each other as they transition into BOY scouts. They can learn together, lean on each other and still be part of a group.

 

Then after they get used to what being a Boy Scout is about,and are comfortable with the program, they can always transfer at any time.

 

Not saying they should switch troops, but that they can if they want to.

 

Other than that, it sounds like 6 of one - half a dozen of the other. One program is bigger (thus less one on one) but is also more agressive with more chances or oppertunities. On the other hand, the other troop might be more personal and one on one, yet they do not have as many oppertunities.

 

I'd say that both are great troops, and in turn boys can opt to go to whichever one suits their personal style.

[GKlose]

Honestly, if it were me and my son(s), and I was doing it over again, I would try and honestly assess where a troop sits with "patrol method" and being youth-led.

 

Do they have a functional PLC?

Do patrol activities dominate their program?

Do patrols have patrol meetings?

Do they came as patrols, or just one big troop?

Do they cook as patrols?

Do they have a functional quartermaster (or multiples) that hand out equipment to patrols?

(and all sorts of questions like that)

 

And I know this will make some people groan, but I think Kudu/Rick (and others around here) are dead on with this topic: do the patrols camp quite a distance apart?

 

The reason why I feel this way is based on my own scouting experience. Yes, we camped apart. A few times, when we did our own summer camp, I doubt we were within 1/4 mile of each other. I'm not sure, because I never visited another patrol site. We were always just working within our own site (which we picked ourselves, built the gateway, rigged our own shower, dug our own pit toilet, etc -- this was back in the early 70s). We had our own adventures, and yes, we tried to be the best patrol there. Other than a daily campsite inspection when we weren't there, and guest adults for dinner, we didn't have adult visitors in our campsite.

 

Guy

[NealOnWheels]

What does your son and his buddies say?

[NJCubScouter]

When you say it is "likely" that your boys would be split up into different patrols in troop 1, I'm not sure what that means. If you asked for the boys to stay together, would the troop say ok? Or is it their belief that the boys need to be split up upon joining the troop? If it is the latter, that might be a red flag for me. One of the benefits of the New Scout Patrol concept (which it sounds to me like troop 1 does not use) is that boys from the same den get the opportunity to stay together, at least for the first year. This eases the transition from Webelos to Boy Scouts. Then when they have been in the troop for a year, if there is not room for all of them in the same regular patrol, it wouldn't be quite so "traumatic". If you combine that with the fact that your boys seemed to like the boys in troop 2 better, that would give me a clear direction if I were advising my son which to choose. (And since there doesn't seem to be any "disqualifying" factor in either troop, it should be the boys' decision.) Troop 1 may have the "better" program now and a more experienced SM, but programs change over time and inexperienced people gain experience. If there is an influx of boys into troop 2 who want a more active program, plus some of their parents as ASM's and troop committee members who want to support a more active program, that can happen.(This message has been edited by njcubscouter)

[Knot Head]

Unless the troop that the boys liked better is just a total disaster I'd go with the troop the boys liked better. If they like the boys they'll have a better chance to hang in there.

 

Just my $.02

 

GKlose posted a good list.

[eagle77]

I agree, the first thing is what do the boys think. Although having a good patrol type program is good it is only one of the methods of scouting. Were the patrols organized and doing things together? Do the boys actually have a say in the program or is it adult run? The one on one is really not something that you are looking for in Boy Scouts, in fact more of the other way, little or less one on one. What about program, I know some troops do a great many activities, over and over to the point that older scouts may get bored. I'd rather be in a troop that did less activities, but with more of a challenge and difference to them (canoeing, High Adventure, Splunking, etc). Was a good amount of the troop in uniform? Were there scouts with different rank advancement on their shirts?

[The Blancmange]

NealOnWheels wrote:

 

What does your son and his buddies say?

You beat me to it. Let your son choose. Both of these troops sound like reasonably successful, albeit different, troops. Let him pick the one where he feels most comfortable. (This message has been edited by the blancmange)

[NJCubScouter]

Things like the strength of the patrol system, uniforming etc. can be factors in a decision, but you need to keep in mind that the reason a boy joins a Boy Scout troop, and stays there, is to have fun. Hopefully, within a couple of years, as he is maturing and learning, he will "get" the fact that there are other reasons to stay, but it is tough to expect that from a 10- or 11-year-old. (I'm generalizing, because there are some brand new Scouts who do "get it" and some who never "get it" even into their high school years and sometimes into adulthood! But on the whole, a young Scout is more likely to stick with it if he is having fun.)

 

The point is, if a boy is not having fun, and leaves Scouting, all of the great benefits of a patrol system, learning responsibility and self-reliance, building character by overcoming challenges, etc., all of that stuff is not going to happen, because the boy won't be there.

[ScoutNut]

I agree with others. The choice is not really up to the adults. It is the boys who will be the ones in the thick of the program. Unless there is an extremely good, overriding, reason to go with one Troop over the other, go with the boys choice.

 

I also would not join a particular Troop with the idea that you can always transfer out at any time. Not realistic. Once the boys have made friends, and settled in, it will be much harder to move. Unless you simply play the adult card over what the boys want.

[Basementdweller]

As others have said it is your sons choice. Back off and let them chose, then support them.

 

I have been thru changing Packs a couple of times, The last one the boys in the den chose. So far it has been great.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I think yeh have to be fair with your son and his buddies, eh? If yeh took 'em around to see what they think of things, you have to weight what they think pretty strongly.

 

So much of success or failure in da first year of Boy Scouting is whether a lad develops "connections" to older boys and adults in the program. That's a funny thing, eh? Doesn't seem to depend on program all that much, just on personality. Kids have a much better sense for good fit than adults... and a much better sense for where bullying or other negative kid stuff is happenin'. Adults can be a bit clueless.

 

Smaller troops can be a bit better/more personal at developin' those connections. Just easier when you're smaller. Only thing that concerns me about Troop #2 is the young Eagles/no older boys thing. That can be a sign of just a newer program, or it can be a tell-tale of a weaker program without a vision for challengin' and excitin' older lads.

 

Eagle is not the goal, however we tend to see advancement as a sign that the program is a healthy and good experience.

 

Oh, yah, yeh need to get over this, eh? Advancement is just a technique we use to help the boys. Works for some boys some of the time, doesn't work for others. It's not a very good indicator of a healthy and good experience.

 

As a parent, yeh can't be fooled by patches, yeh have to do the harder work, eh? Is your son really learning stuff? Becoming more confident? Talking with some enthusiasm about Scouting? Volunteering by choice to join his buddies to do service? Soakin' up the values you care about?

 

Don't mix up methods and goals, eh?

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Mike F]

If you've only visited them once, you might go back with or without your son to get to know them better. Don't be pulled aside to get more sales pitch. Spend the time observing closely for any signs of negative attitude and to see what makes them tick. Spend some time chatting with one or two experienced adults to understand their philosophy of delivering the program. Every boy has a personality and every troop has a personality. It's important to find a good match. In fact, I think this is much more important than Web buddies all going to the same troop, unless they all had very similar personalities. If there's a good match, your boys will make new best friends for life in the first few months.

 

Other questions I would add to the list above include:

- How many of last year's new recruits are still active?

- How many from the year before?

 

In my study of troops in our area, I've found the larger troops almost always have a higher attrition rate and lose half of their new guys in the first 2 years. My theory is this is related directly to difficulty of feeling like they belong and getting lost in the chaos.

[Knot Head]

QUOTE: >>>>In my study of troops in our area, I've found the larger troops almost always have a higher attrition rate and lose half of their new guys in the first 2 years.

[AKdenldr]

Thanks all for your thoughtful responses. It was reassuring to see your thinking reflect what is floating around in our heads as we consider this all.

 

The final upshot on all this is that we are having a parent / son meeting soon and will collect all the thoughts and let the boys decide.

 

Roughly boys prefer the second option, although it was hard for them to assess the first group in its large troop meeting. We're hoping to take them to a patrol meeting so they can see that troop more personally.

 

Beavah, I mentioned eagle because specifically it isn't our primary goal for our sons. Yet every troop we visited talked to the adults about the eagle process without prompting. -- Perhaps that is what they think Webelos parents are concerned with.

 

Thanks all, I'll give a final update.