What is a "Mill"?

[lrsap]

When I saw the title of this thread, I knew this would make for some interesting reading. So far the main idea I get from most people is that they would never want their son associated with an organization that:

 

1) Is planned, run, and completely overseen by an adult

2) Is not run by the boys

3) Focuses on advancement

 

I hate to break the news to you, he goes there Monday - Friday. It's called school. And some of us pay to send them there.

 

I have two problems with the constant criticisms of what some people refer to as "mills".

 

One, there is never a distinction between a unit that focuses on advancement, and one that gives advancement away. I contend that many "Boy Led" troops could be just as guilty of cheapening the advancement process as an so called mill. "Hey Bobby, just put me down for 2 pull-ups."

 

The other is the disdain some people have "The solution, fire them all" that some people have for the leaders of these mills. Broken down, a leader of a mill is an adult who:

 

Cares about the youth in his community

Takes time out of his life to provide service to these youth

Takes them outside and away from the Playstation

Instills a sense of community service and patriotism in the boys he leads

 

Yes, I truly believe the best thing we could do is make sure these adults stay away from our kids, and hope they never come in contact with them again. After all, there is only one way to do Boy Scouting. (Sarcasm fully in place)

[Basementdweller]

Knotheads group gets it. If I visited a troop that had the Scouts running the activities and the Leaders dealing with the adults separately that says a lot.

 

Irsap, I have no idea your scouting experiences. But many long time scouters treat it as a club and the Troop as personal property. The meetings are not about the boys and it is about the adults program they are providing to the boys. The way I worded my statement was harsh, but sometime that is what is required.

 

A scout troops leadership needs to turn over. I have met leadership that need to leave scouting. The adults run the program, an example. The entire troop earned the Ad Altare Dei three of the boys were baptist. hmmmmm. How about the SM whose been the merit badge councilor for every single merit badge the troops boys have completed.

 

Who is ultimately in charge of the Program? It falls to the Charter org rep and the committee chair. The problem is most COR are just figure heads who don't understand their role, are under trained or uninterested.

 

I would call an Eagle mill the troop that significantly and consistently performs better than the normal statics for scouts in their troop reaching eagle. If it is 20% or more I would call it a mill.

 

Most troops who I consider eagle mills are very young, they get their eagle and leave.

 

The other values that are instilled

1. The Goal is more important than the process

2. Work Work Work scouting is work

3. Eagle is just another line on a college application or resume

 

 

I guarantee that an Eagle who finishes it at 17 appreciates it much more than a 14 year old who pounds thru it in a mill.

 

No right or wrong just the quality of their scouting experience.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[Eagledad]

>>I hate to break the news to you, he goes there Monday - Friday. It's called school. And some of us pay to send them there.

[Beavah]

Yah, seems like folks are gettin' a might sensitive.

 

As yeh all know, I work with and see all kinds of troops, and in the end a lot of different troops is a good thing. Most have caring leaders and do good things for the boys. Now, that's not to say I don't have my preferences, eh? I tend to prefer the troops that seem to get the best outcomes - those that keep their lads well into high school, and where yeh can trust the lads on the spot for any skill or any aspect of character.

 

A bit of criticism and reflection is a good thing. Like da other thread on boys not being active in high school. There are troops where lads are consistently active in high school - even more active then they were in middle school. That's a challenge to yeh if yeh think your troop is doin' OK with lads who are drifting off in high school. It should be a challenge. It should hopefully get yeh thinkin' "Gee, if they can do it, why can't we?" That's how programs get stronger.

 

Same thing here, eh? If some of da "mill" comments seem to hit a bit close to home, it's worth settin' aside ego for a bit and takin' a look at things. Talk to other scouters in your area. Have 'em come and visit and give you their honest impressions and critiques. Talk to boys in your troop. Talk to other lads. Might be that there are things you can do better, eh? Might be there are other things you're just fine with.

 

Da term "mill" comes from schools, eh? The term is "diploma mill" referrin' to high schools and colleges that just pass folks along. School gets the money, student gets the piece of paper, everyone feels great except that junior can't read. It's been common parlance in Scoutin' for the many decades I've been around, referrin' to the same thing - troop gets lots of members, they all get the badge, everyone feels great except junior can't camp a few days in bad weather without retreatin' to the cars. Either that, or at their EBOR they really can't describe anything in the troop they really took ownership of, felt responsible for, or changed to make better because they spent all of their time followin' the prescribed set of courses run by adults. They didn't get da character.

 

When I look at council stats, I can pretty much pick out da "mills", eh? Talkin' to folks at roundtable it's also pretty easy. EBORs tell the tale, too, eh? Da stuff Eamonn describes and other things.

 

If it works for yeh, nobody is goin' to force you to change. But if da shoe is fittin' pretty well and you're uncomfortable with bein' in that camp, then maybe it's somethin' to improve. The best units are always changin' and improvin'.

 

Beavah

 

[Beavah]

[double post](This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Knot Head]

>>>>I would define a mill as a troop (or pack), as one that after a Scout earns a particular badge/patch, they forget it and move on. They do not practice it, they do not live it or use the skills involved with "earning" it. It was just a chek mark on a bigger list of fish to fry. Earned today, forgotten tomorrow.

[lrsap]

Beavah, I think you hit it perfectly when you said some folks were getting a bit sensitive, because when I re-read my post I can see I did a little more of a rant than I should have. But honestly, my reaction came from thinking about how things are going on around us these days, stories you hear in the paper, and I have a hard time thinking we should throw out people that just may not do things as well as others.

 

About the school thing, that wasn't meant to mean scouts should be like school. Trust me, any troop that tried would fold rather quickly out of sheer boredom. It was just meant to say the same structure of adult leadership some find distasteful for their child's development in one area is the norm in another. But again, it turned out to read like a smart aleck comment.

 

Agreeing with Beavah again, in my opinion the best approach is that there be something for everyone. But I still contend that the mill itself isn't the most harmful thing about scouting, but rather any unit, totally boy or adult lead, that gives away it's advancement rather than demand it be earned.

[OldGreyEagle]

I think the association with the word "pervert" is quite a good one. A mill is anyone who has better sucess than you, if you measure success by rank advancements or number of Eagles a year.

 

I have been with the troop I serve for about 13 years now, in that time we have been labeled an Eagle Mill but I understand we are ok right now, from what I have heard. The time period when were were an "Eagle Mill" was when we had a terrific active camping program and a bunch of charismatic scouts and a bunch of enthusiastic adults. Incredibly enough, during that time we usually had in excess of 60 scouts and were having 8-12 Eagle courts of honor a year. Since then the active charismatic scouts aged out, enthusiastic parents left with their sons and now we have 30 + in the troop. The current group is not near as excited about hiking up to Sunfish Pond at the Delaware Water Gap, we now have 3-4 Eagle courts a year, sometimes less. I don't see the philosophy of the troop as changing much, the program is there, its up to the boys to use it and yea, I might not have the energy I did nor do some of the other leaders but I do not think we were ever a mill.

[Oak Tree]

I'm ok with all different troops running all different kinds of programs. I don't really like the perjorative labelling of other units.

 

But if I were to suggest what symptoms would indicate a 'mill', there are a couple that stand out.

1. Scouts all earn their badges at the same time. Just as everyone graduates from school at the same time.

2. Scouts all (or mostly) earn Eagle at age 14 or so.

3. Scouts mostly drop out after earning Eagle.

 

But some of the so-called "Eagle mills" are very successful troops with lots more going for them. In the council of my youth, there was one troop that always had the most Eagles. They also were the most active troop, the most popular troop, etc. Good for them. I don't think that just having lots of Eagles makes you a mill.

[JerseyScout]

When I use the term mill its usually in terms "merit badge mill", I am usually using it in reference to a Summer camp.

 

Some horror stories...

 

- The Scouts who signed up for a merit badge, showed up for the first half hour, decided it was ridiculous and left, but were given signed blue cards at the end of the week.

- The Scout who failed Swimming Merit badge with one of our counselors. The counselor would not sign most of the requirements for the badge because the boy flat out could not swim (which is kind of important for the merit badge). Six weeks later he returned from camp with Swimming Merit Badge.

- The Personal Fitness Merit Badge class that was being run by a Scout instead of an adult. This Scout apparently told one of our boys that he had not earned that particular badge himself yet.

 

I also find the Dan Beard programs at some of these camps to be outright scary, the Scouts come back having learned absolutely nothing.

[Knot Head]

>>>I also find the Dan Beard programs at some of these camps to be outright scary, the Scouts come back having learned absolutely nothing.

[JerseyScout]

>>>What's a Dan Beard program? Is that like 'trailblazers" where they work on T21 skills at camp instead of MBs? If so we avoid those programs. Well... the adults at camp go volunteer and help the staff teach but we steer the scouts in our troop away from that program. It may be good at some summer camps, but not where we go. We like the older scouts to teach the younger guys T21 on a troop campout or at a meeting. Better teaching ratio and don't have to rush thru a skill.

[Scoutfish]

Although I am a Cub Scouter and not a BOY Scouter.....

I just very recently (last night) found another way to look at what could be percieved as a mill.

 

As of yesterday, my son has completed enough requirements and electives to earn his Bear badge, a gold Arrow Point, and a silver Arrow Point too.

 

He is also working on his whittling chip card. So far he can tell and correctly demonstrate the safety procedures. I even copied a "test" from online and he took it. I just told him I want him to practice some more before going to his den leader for sign off on the card.

 

WEll, at a field trip for all our pack's Bear Cubs last night, my son told another cub that he has earned his bear,gold AP and silver AP.And he was working on his whittling chip card. Well, that cub's parent overheard him and asked how it was possible since his child hadn't earned it yet.And said I probably was wrong about a Bear being allowed to use a knife. ( Yeah, they must have really read their son's Bear book!)

 

So I explained about how most of the work was home base, that each child was different and there was no set timeline either for a cub to earn his Bear badge (other than trying to earn it before the year was over).

 

But then I also explained that my son was fortunate in one other reguard: I have been home since Dec 15th because of surgery. I HAD cancer, but it was removed. (The surgery was on my neck/shoulder area.) I also showed him the whittling chip Achievement ( Cub Scout Bear Handbook #33451 - Achievement #19 "Shavings and Chips")

 

In reality, I'm fine, but taking physical therapy and what not.I could be working right now, but the Dr wanted me to not go back to work until the 1st of Feb.Blah blah blah. Boring details.

 

Point being, I'm not bed ridden or imobile. I can't do cartwheels, but couldn't do that before! LOL!

 

So, I have been home for over a month and a half. You can only cook, clean, do chores and repairs so much before you run out of stuff to do.

 

HEY! I know! Lets work on acheivements and electives!

 

Between weekends, Thanksgiving,winter break, Christmas, New Years, teacher workdays and what not, I have spent more time with my son in the last 2 1/2 months than I have most of the year!

 

I don't have to get up and leave at dark, only to get home at dark, at which point, by the time I shower, eat supper, and do necessaary c hores..I may not work on any achievements or electives.

 

 

Okay okay, my poiint is.......... Some kids may have parents who only work part time, do not work at all,or could be retitred , maybe have a grandfather or mother who have time to kill. They may help Jr work on this requirement or that elective every chance they get.

 

Sure, some things have to be done at meetings and some things can only be done by a scout, but even a little help makes a big difference and can cut the time needed for a requirement or elective down.

 

Just something to think about!