Types of Troops

[Beavah]

GAHillBilly's post in the parent thread was a bit inflammatory, but I confess I did find it interestin' in part. I think it's quite fair to take us to task for hypin' adventure and sometimes not deliverin', or takin' us to task if bullying is going on in our units.

 

When I look at da troops in my council I don't see anywhere near the percentages GAHillBilly describes. I reckon it's safe to say, though, that there are a fair number of "Badge Mill" programs out there, and there are certainly more and less active outdoor programs. Yeh can find troops where lads make Eagle before high school with 60 merit badges and projects averagin' 50 hours, and others where lads make Eagle at age 17 with 25 merit badges and projects averagin' 400-500 hours. There are troops that run car campin' trips only in the good weather months, troops that shut down in the summer, and troops that run year-round includin' 2 weeks of camp and 2 or more high adventure treks a year. And yah, if I'm honest about it, there is a correlation between da girth of the leaders and the level of activity and adventure in the program, and it's a negative one.

 

None of this variation bothers me in particular, eh? Different troops with different approaches serve different kids. I enjoy EBORs with all the lads, even recognizing that the outcomes in terms of learning and character aren't the same for different programs. And I reckon that less experienced or fit scouters running less aggressive programs is one of da ways we keep things safe, eh? Better than inexperienced and unfit folks running aggressive programs! Those adults are still giving the time and energy they have to the scouts, and the scouts will benefit from that.

 

Now I do have my preferences, as we all do. I like to see lads really learn skills, and I like to see advancement used well enough to be meaningful, and I like to see an active, youth-run program year-round. Like to see reasonable and fun uniformin', too, though that may be a lost cause all around .

 

What are you seein' in your area? Is there some truth to GAHillBilly's rather pointed critique? Some truth to the level of bullying which he and Lisabob and others have described? If yeh had a parent like him, could you point him to a troop in your area (other than your own), which would meet his expectations for rigor and adventure?

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

While I'm on the CS level now, my affilaition with the OA has intro'd me to all of the troops. And yes the OA did stop during thje summer b/c most troops were at camp. Now we do have one or two that close down for the summer, and one that meets alternating weeks. I don't really understand that so I like the troop that meets every week, except summer camp.

 

I see a wide mix in the type of camping. yep car camping is prevelent, but I do see some backingpacking. I also see some units starting to promote backpacking more and more. Heck there is an idea flaoting around to create a walking/backpacking trail nearby and use it for a backpackign camporee.

 

Now one outdoor skill I was shocked to see suffering is firebuilding. Out of all the patrols at the district camporee in the fall, only two could build and light a fire with only two matches. AND one fo those was a NSP that got some assistance from a judge. All the patrols save oen got advice on what to do, but the NSP had a demonstration on how to prep the wood. the one patrol that didn;t need any help was able to build and start a fire, boil the water, cook a noodle, and tie it in a square knot in about 32 mintues.

 

I think part of the firebuilding problem may be that my state was under a fire ban fo so long. Also more and more troops are using stoves.

 

More later.

[Scoutfish]

I have said before, that I'm fairly new to scouting. I am in my second year,and I am also a ADL. Next year,I plan on being a DL for Web I

 

Now, being that I'm fairly new, I feel you should either take what I say with a grain of salt,or realize that I am only seeing a small picture what really goes on.Meaning my insight is only as extensive as my experience.

 

Now, I will say that I have learned more about scouting in here , than FROM the Oficial books.

 

Now, I'm only in a pack and not a troop, but I'd like to think we were somewhere in the middle.

 

My observations are based on 1 whole campout experience. Yes, only 1, but it's amazing what you can learn by watching.

 

I can see some Webelos, that if you gaave them 1 match, 1 cracker, and a Rambo knife...dumped them on a deserted island... and came back a month later - they would have gained ten pounds, have a shelter fit for a king and crafted a bamboo bicycle for transportation.

 

Why? Because their Den Leader/parents made sure the scout actually "experienced the experience" in full. No cutting corners, no holding back, and giving an honest effort at particpation and learning.

 

Then on the other hand, I see parents who will hover over Jr and wipe his face for every sigle smudge, speck of dirt or what not, Sometimes they want Jr's project to be of such quality, they do it themselves and make sure Jr doesn't touch it lest he ruins it.

 

I also observed these parents cut hikes short or carry Jr because his shorter legs might get boo boos.

 

I know you know they type.

 

As for bullying : Lay the blame on the parents. Well, not all the time, but pretty much most of the time. These are parents who in one way, shape or form bully themselves on a day to day basis and have taught by example. Maybe they just don't understand courtesey, respect or individula freedom. Maybe they cannot see past their own ideas and opinions. They expect the whole group to bend and conform to whatever ideals they have, and theirs alone. Afterall, all 150 Cubs and 250 parents are only their for THEIR children!

 

I'm sure you know those types too.

 

Now, I'm just hoping, that by getting involved,getting my hands dirty, taking my classes and getting trained right, I can put more emphasis on the Cubs, how much they participate and actually honestly learn.

I guess I'm trying to help turn the tide to a real, and meaningful scouting experience, and not one that is just for show!

[Nike]

I was pretty surprised by GAHB's quality descriptions and quantitative assessments of BS troops. I think most of the troops that I've seen, and all the troops we've been part of are definitely in the "Top 10%". I don't know if it's a case of "Birds of a Feather" or if GAHB is being somewhat cynical and/or unfair. Makes me wonder what goes on in his neck of the woods.

[Basementdweller]

Mr fish.....I bet our groups run similar program. I hope we meet some day.

 

 

GAH I applaud your attempt to reach out to home schoolers.

 

 

I find GA's monologue interesting and wonder why it is so controversial??? If people are embarrassed by the program they provide then so be it. Fix your programs. I understand that we all strive to be boy lead, What if the boys don't or won't do it???

 

There should be a measuring stick of some sort for troop performance. The quality unit award is ridiculous.

 

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with GA choices for measurements.

[Lisabob]

Well I don't know that I would characterize the various "types" of troops in the way that was done in the parent thread, nor do I know that I would buy the percentages listed there. But I do agree that many troops fail to live up to the expectations of the boys (and sometimes, of their parents) on a frequent basis. Sometimes that's also because the boys (and often, their parents) don't understand the responsibilities that they need to shoulder, if they want to do more. And then some do understand, but aren't interested in doing the work - they just want to show up and have it all done for them.

 

I do think, though, that skill levels are a serious issue. I'm not often deeply impressed by the real woodsman-like skills of many scouts I meet, including some of those in my son's troop. On the other hand, let's not downplay what boys do learn that we adults might take for granted. Yes, I wish scouts were better able to cook over a wood fire and get away from the big coleman stoves. But then I know darn few 10 and 11 year olds OUTSIDE of scouting who could cook a half-way edible meal in the comfort of their own kitchen. The fact that boys do learn some cooking skills, even on big gas stoves, is a plus in my book.

 

Similarly, I'd like to see more high adventure and better quality instruction at summer camps and other events. These are areas where legitimate gripes exist.

 

Regarding bullying, I think Beavah may have over-stated my past comments so I do want to clarify. Troop cultures can be such that bullying is routinely tolerated or overlooked (much in the way GAH described in the original thread). That's a real problem. I would not say it is endemic to all, or most, troops I know of though.

 

In my area, I don't think we do a fabulous job of encouraging youth leadership and the patrol method. Most troops I know of are somewhere on the "troop method" spectrum, ranging from small troops that only have one patrol, to troops where patrols advance together, earn merit badges together, etc, to troops where patrols exist, do not advance or move in lock step, but are consistently undermined by routine troop practices like forming ad hoc patrols on camp outs, or not giving PLs any real authority, etc.

 

If I were pointing a family toward troops in my area, I would tell them that each troop has strengths and weaknesses. Some people really like the troop where the whole patrol advances together. Some really like the more independent nature of the troop where patrols are stable but not rigid like that. Some favor a smaller group environment. Some like larger troops with more opportunities available to them.

 

I think fund raising and popcorn are irrelevant to the nature of the program, and don't fault troops who engage in these - AS LONG AS the boys have input and know what the funds are going toward.

 

Adult leaders - it takes all kinds. To be a good, active troop it does seem like there needs to be a minimum number of physically fit individuals. But maybe that morbidly obese scouter with an inability to walk 3 miles is also a great mentor in other regards. One time I met a guy who I think was about 90. He has mobility issues, but man, could he tie and teach knots. You have to put people in the right positions to make the most of their talents and abilities.

 

As for my son's troop - they camp 10 months a year (taking off December and August) but it is mostly car camping. Most boys enter the troop with little or no camping experience, and car camping is better than nothing - but I would like to see other, more intense, activities from time to time. The boys, though, routinely vote (literally and with their feet) against a lot of serious backpacking and back country activities. They have provided some high adventure options, usually coordinated with summer camp. They have (in my view) accepted sub-par instruction at summer camps in certain situations, but as permanently Out of Council troop, it can be hard at times to effect change in a given camp's approach to instruction. Advancement does sometimes seem a little soft, with younger boys whose skill levels are questionable and a few older boys who (again, in my view) don't demonstrate good leadership or scout spirit. But I think most advancements are within the realm of reasonability.

 

In the final analysis, we're not perfect. I've been candid about that on the forum, and those who have read my posts know that I get frustrated with that sometimes. There are specific areas I'd like to see changed. BUt then again, there is still great value to be had from what does exist, and that shouldn't be overlooked either. Anybody who is looking for "perfect" is bound to be seriously disappointed.

[Scoutfish]

Car Camping>

Please clarify: Does this mean driving to a campsite, setting up tent as opposed to hiking miles then setting up camp/ tents....

 

Or is this where you drive a truck, throw a tarp over the bed of the truck and toss sleeping bag in there too snd sleep that way?

[Lisabob]

the former, not the latter. "Car camping" is sometimes ridiculed because the temptation is to bring every comfort of home (after all, the car is only a few hundred feet away! No need to pack light). Car camping isn't exactly roughing it in the back country. But realistically, it is what most troops I know of do, most of the time, and for a lot of folks, it is their first and primary exposure to camping of any sort.

[Horizon]

I am familiar with 4 Troops:

My original Troop as a boy

The Troop where I am honored to be the Scoutmaster.

The "Troop next door" that we also reviewed while in Cubs (and where several friends are leaders).

My son's Jamboree Troop for 2010.

 

Merit Badge Mills:

Our Council has Merit Badge Days - so there is some of that going on.

Our local Summer Camps are also merit badge schools as well. Their counselors are not too shabby, though, and my Scouts learn in the classes. I also only sign Blue Cards for outdoors related badges at Summer Camp unless it is one of my older Scouts who has done everything else.

The two local Troops don't seem to be cranking the sashes full too fast.

 

Advancement Mills:

My Scouts CAN (but don't always) make First Class in the first year IF THEY CHOOSE. I have a strong group of youth leaders and Instructors who regularly review the key Scout Skills of the Trail to First Class. We regularly have Patrol contests for certain skills, and we are active participants at Camporee.

 

Youth Led:

IMHO we are a B, trying to earn an A. I don't know how we truly compare to other Troops on this. I have been working hard on passing more responsibility to my Scouts, and after almost two years as the Scoutmaster, it is starting to really take.

 

The Outing in Scouting:

We camp every month. Period. Mainly car camping, with 2-3 backpacking trips and one annual 10+ mile hike in (where the gear is waiting for you). I am happy with this, and we bounce around a lot of sites to make sure that the boys don't get bored with locations either. We play wide area games, practice Scoutcraft, and generally have a blast. We don't hit Kudu's 300 feet between Patrols (next to impossible in many of the places we go in Southern California), but we do try to get the Patrols to separate from each other.

 

Leader fit measurements:

I hit the trail with the Scouts, and I have several adult leaders who hit the trail with me. I also have some adults who won't pass the new high adventure / remote location requirements - but we don't let that stand in the way of activities.

 

Young Eagles:

This is one of my hot buttons. I EARNED my Eagle pretty young (as in - before I turned 14). I happily discuss my project, and I can remember most of what I learned from my Merit Badges. I have 15 year old Eagles and 17.999999 year old Eagles in my Troop. This upcoming year I will probably have a few 14 year old Eagles, simply because I have told them that it is OK to try for it. Some boys had been discouraged from doing this prior to my arrival, and a culture of putting off the final bits of work until the summer before Senior year of high school had snuck into the tent. I support any Scout at any age.

 

Bullying:

No tolerance for it, but it still happens. We also treat it as quickly as possible, with an immediate SMC, and in truly bad situations a BOR held. Only issue is the unseen and unreported bullying.

 

Reverence and Morality:

Emphasized regularly, and I have a Minister in my Troop who counsels boys on earning their God and Country badge. I also have a local Rabbi who works with my Jewish Scouts. I am working on getting the local Iman to help out my one Muslim Scout with his path. There are a couple of boys who I THINK are Buddhist, and I might take the training with them just to learn more myself.

 

We hype what we have and what we deliver, and we encourage Scouts to check out other local troops as well and make their choices. I work in sales and marketing, and I have no problem standing behind my "product".

[GKlose]

Maybe I'm more relaxed than others, but I didn't see his list as being inflammatory. Sure, it would probably degenerate into pages and pages of quibbling over percentages and how he worded certain things, but that's minor. I think we can all understand where he's coming from, and kudos to him for actually putting his name on a strong opinion.

 

It's not that I know our district's troops well, and I would like to observe a few of them, but I've seen all sorts of things in the last couple of years (longer, if Cubs are included): helicopter parents, Webelos III troops, advancement by pulse-checking, empty PoRs, "World's Oldest SPL", predominance of car camping, alleged boy-led which isn't, September to June troop activity, and the list goes on and on. One favorite of mine was where a parent pushed for an August "high adventure" trip to a national park where siblings and parents (he specifically mentioned moms) could go along, shop and hang out (no kidding!).

 

Guy

[Stosh]

If one is to focus in on types of programs, it much also be emphasized that not everyone can succeed in every style made available.

 

Fortunately our community offers two very different "types" of troops for parents to consider for their boys.

 

Troop A is adult led, large numbers, well organized and efficient.

 

Troop B is boy led, small numbers, chaotic and inefficient.

 

Most parents take a look and immediately decide their kids are to go to Troop A. However, when the Council selected an Eagle Scout to share his BSA experience as main speaker for the annual big contributor's fundraiser banquet, they selected an Eagle Scout from Troop B. When the Council selected leadership for the 2010 Jamboree they selected a 2nd and 3rd ASM from Troop B, none from Troop A although they had applied.

 

While success can be defined in many different ways, it remains with each individual to decide for themselves how they wish to choose.

 

Both troops have produced some great scouts. But although coming from two totally different approaches to the program are "successful" each in their own way. If one were to emphasize the quantity numbers of boys and activities, Troop A wins every time, but if one were to emphasize the quality issues which are more difficult to measure, Troop B may hold a solid edge.

 

I think it is a real advantage to our community to have the opportunity to have such divergent troops available at the same time for the parents in our area.

 

Areas where two troops are not an option, one may have to work extra hard on some kind of hybrid of the two opposites of Troop A and Troop B's situation. One of the great advantages of the BSA program is it's ability to encompass both these kinds of troops at the same time. Both units have well trained (at least 3 WB leaders in each Troop), experienced, dedicated adult leaders that simply emphasize two different definitions of success for their boys.

 

Stosh

 

 

[allangr1024]

I follow the blog of Jerry Schleining (Scoutmaster Jerry) of the Scoutmaster Minute, and love the descriptions of his troop activities, which usually revolve around a backpacking trip in the mountains of Oregon. He describes his troop as a "backpacking troop". He is fortunate to have such a beautiful rugged mountainous area close at hand.

 

Here in the southern plains states, we have to travel at least 3 hours by car to get to the nearest mountains, in this case the Ozarks. I love backpacking, did Philmont a few years ago, and urge my troop to do backcountry camping as much as possible. We schedule one or two treks per year. But we have to make due with the area we live in, and take advantage of the camping opportunities we have near at hand. Half of our outings are car camping trips to council camps, where we are free to do scoutcraft activities that we schedule at our annual planning session.

 

I find it strange that someone would judge troops based on a style of camping. In my humble opinion, a troop should do a bit of everything. As a former scoutmaster put it to me, offer a "full program of scouting." If a troop never goes backpacking, or climbing, or canoeing, or day hiking, or fishing, or whatever, then they ought to do it once every few years, to give the boys exposure to a variety of activities.

 

Add to this the assumption that the boys, running their program through the PLC, will decide to a large extent where they want to go and what they want to do. As a scoutmaster I can guide them, and perhaps direct them if they have trouble focusing, but I can not and should run the program for them. This weekend we are going to Kansas for the annual Trappers Rendezvous event. Our boys love this event and vote for it year after year. If I tried to steer them away from it, I would have a revolt in the ranks.

 

Someone above said, if the program needs fixing, then fix it. I have dealt with muddled advancement requirements caused by lax or uninformed scouters (and a few that I caused myself) and I stand aghast at some of the shoddy merit badge events I have seen. We do what we can.

 

 

 

 

[Mafaking]

From Baeavah "If yeh had a parent like him, could you point him to a troop in your area (other than your own), which would meet his expectations for rigor and adventure?"

 

No

 

We aren't much different than the four closest troops to our meeting hall. None are true Eagle mills and none are pure high adventure. Most falsely claim to be boy run but aren't. Most claim to have a certain magic that no other troop has. But the magic comes from the scouts not from the leaders.

 

Backpacking is not the end all beat all. I would rather have a scout spend a week with my troop at summer camp without a parent then to spend two nights crapping in the woods to prove he can do it.

 

Let's define High adventure:

Is is physical Risk?

Is it emotional risk

is it based on dependency of society, toilets...?

Is it breaking a barrier real or imagined in the youth's head.

 

 

[Eagle92]

The more I read about troops elsewhere and the challenges faced by other scouters and scouts, the more I appreciate the troop I grew up in, and ther troops I've been affiliated with.

 

The troops have been boy run with little, a few of the troops I joined as a leader who were getting started, to almost no adult intervention, my troop growing up and one other as an adult.

 

The troops offered a variety of campign experiences. Yep my troop growing up mostly did car camping, but also wilderness survival and backpacking expereinces. Also the troop I grew up in had a good relationship with the other troops in the district, so we had scouts going to Philmont and other HA activities with others.

 

Now I admit some hazing did occur in the troop of my youth. It was organinzed by the PLC, occured at summer camp, only happened once to a scout, and usually consisted of childish pranks of moving the tents around, putting equipment up the flagpole, shaving cream in boots, etc. Anyone who did a prank and it wasn't approved was punished by the PLC. Now that hazing did stop altogether about my 2nd year in the troop.

 

BUT we were very protective of our own. One year there was a troop at summer camp that was causing all kinds of havoc until they were kicked out mid week. the PLC organized the troops and dealt with the problem. After one incident, that troop did not bother any member of my troop, knowing to avoid anyone with a keystone on their t-shirt like the plague.

 

Now some folks consider singing for your lost stuff hazing, but the PLC didn't and that did continue. Usually the SPL, ASPL or Pl would join in the singing.

 

As for leaders and their scoutign skills, while all of the adults knew the T-2-1 skills and could teach IF need be, the older scouts did the teaching, most adults specialized in one or two areas. Our job was to make sure the older scoutsknew their skills and could teach them properly. Adults didn't get involved until it was MB time.

 

We weren't perfect, out meetings were organized chaos, a nd yes we did have some parents and prospective members who didn't like how we ran things and not join. BUT there is no doubt in my mind that anyone who got to First Class in my troop could go out on there own in a wildeness setting and survive. there is no doubt in my mind, that those who got to First Class are good citizens who are makign a difference in the community they live in and nation as a whole.

[Eagledad]

We are fortunate to have enough troops in our area that most families can find a troop near them that meets their taste.

 

I didnt really have much trouble with GAHillBillys list except a question about the scouts discussions in tents: How does he know? I guess it bothers me because we once had an adult who actually set up her sleeping bag next to her sons tent late at night so she could listen to the discussions. Short story is that she was asked to leave three troops before she and her son gave up scouting. But Im not sure any parent should or could listen to such discussions from their sons of the boy scout age.

 

Bullying is an interesting topic because it seems to come up a lot now in this forum. Is that a sign of the times? In my years of scouting I came to believe that the general personality of the Scouts is a direct reflection of the adults. So this bullying thing is a little bothersome to me. Its not that I believe the adults are bullies, quite the opposite. My fear is the adults are so over protective now that they arent acting or reacting normally with the boys. My hope is that this issue is more of a forum issue than a general problem.

 

I think a list of troops that give parents a general Opinion of units is OK. When I was CM, I gave my Den Leaders a list of my five favorite troops that rated from very boy run to very adult run. That was about it as far as detail, but it allowed the parents to choose the program most comfortable for them. We were lucky to have a good variety of troops in our area.

 

Barry