Do the Oath and Law "Actually" Stand for Something? "Aspirational Goals"

[CalicoPenn]

"Aspirational Goal"? Seem's rather redundant given that the definition of Aspiration is Goal. May as well say Aspirational Hope - oops, a definition of Aspiration is also Hope - another redundancy. I'd give real money to be able to corner the dope who coined this idiotic term - "aspirational goal" in a corner so I could slap him silly using a pair of soft deerskin gloves.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

So......do they really stand for something, or do they really mean anything?

 

 

That's a great question. But bigger question is..who decides?

 

See, I can drill The Scout Oath. Law , and Promise into my son's head day in, day out. I could make him write it 100 times a day and recite it 100 times a night before bedtime.

 

And what would I have done? Just add a lot of burdon to him.

 

I could try to lead by example. Again, he may or may not get it.

 

So if we aren't so biased by what we "think" it means, when do we decide if it means anything to them?

 

NOw, here's what I mean:

 

The whoile time I grew up, my mom and dad constantly got on me about closing the door, turning off lights, not wasting food and giving an honest effort when working at something. As a child and teenager, all I heard was blah, blah, blah and ocassionaly "I'm a dorky parent!" LOL!

 

But lo and behold, one day, I met a girl, fell in love and started planning. Soon enough, I got married, had a kid who in turn,is now a Bear cub.

Ask me what those words mean, and I might give you a different answer each day. But while you are asking, you will see me walking from room to room turning out lights, checking to see if the door is closed to the outside world, after spending a day at work where not only did I ive an honest effort, but also applied the same standards that I would have for anything I own or wanted( meaning if I don't accept my work, I don't expect you to either!).

 

So when did it all kick in? I can't say for sure with any exact certainty, but I'm willing to bet when I started paying my own bills for my own house and family out of my own check. I suddenly understood what it all meant.

No as for scouting, let you son misplace his last $10.00 in public. Let him realize that he won't buy that toy or game he wanted to buy. Then watch as that old gentleman walks up and tells him : "Here son,I think you droped this."

 

Suddenly, it becomes clear to him too>

 

So my answer is: YES! It does mean something. We just have to make sure it means it to our scouts, not what we "think" it should mean to them - AND when it means it!

[BDPT00]

I think part of the dilemma is the idea of producing cookie-cutter Scouts. Ask an eleven year old what Helpful means. Ask another one, and you'll get a different answer. Then ask them both six years later, and see what happens. Is any answer wrong? In a cookie-cutter world, yes. In the real world (our Scouting world is better than real life), no.

If we ask what day JFK was shot, there's one answer. Any other answer is wrong, even if close. That's black and white. Any good Scout leader understands gray, and that's where we live and learn.

Does the Oath and Law stand for something? Of course it does. Do they learn anything similar in school? No. So where do non-Scout kids learn ethics and values? TV, video games, peers, and parents who think it's society's job.

Our society is getting worse. Scouting, however, is standing firm on its values. They're my values too. Yours? Ours? Our kids?

BDPT00

 

[BadenP]

BDPT

 

Let me congratulate you on your well written post, which I happen to agree with 100%. I think I may have been wrong about you after all. It is nice to see that when it comes to the core values of what scouting is all about most of us scouters, I think, are in agreement. Well done.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[BDPT00]

WELL! I thank you.

I've been waiting for you to chime in on the survey thing. I haven't yet looked there tonight.

And yes, I'm pretty passionate about our values. I'll never be a senator or even a mayor. I won't make big changes in the world, but I can do my piece, one Scout at a time. Maybe they'll make the big changes. Based on their character and talent, I hope so.

BDPT00

[HICO_Eagle]

Scoutfish, I contend it's relatively easy to decide if the words mean anything to the Scout. Does the Scout truly attempt to live by them? Some Scouts have an harder time than others for purely biological or physiological conditions but there aren't that many that genuinely suffer from these conditions. In general, you can tell whether they are truly living by the Oath and Law or not through their conduct.

 

My troop took a cavalcade at Philmont on one of my last outings with them as SM. One of our older boys was a Life Scout working on Eagle but his conduct during the cavalcade was NOT living by the Scout Oath and Law. I discussed this with my Troop Committee Chair (who was also on the cavalcade), COR and his parents and all agreed it was inappropriate to schedule him for a BOR. We then called him down (we had held this discussion in his parents' family room) and discussed the situation with him. He started alluding to how he was going to be different when he was Eagle so I stopped him short and told him he had it wrong. Eagle rank flows from Scoutlike conduct not vice-versa.

 

I further told him that if we had a formal SM conference or BOR that night he'd have flunked but we weren't denying him the Eagle rank, we were giving him additional time to show he deserved it. It took him a moment but it sank in. His conduct DID start shaping up before I had to move a couple months later but I was later informed by the TCC that not only did he successfully complete Eagle but turned out to be one of our better Eagles including extensive involvement after earning the award.

 

My point in this anecdote was that we all believed the Oath and Law stood for something then. The Scout learned they were not "aspirational" but actually stood for something. I still believe they stand for something.

[Oak Tree]

HICO states, referring to me, "I don't see how you're saying the values are defined to be aspirational."

 

Ok, so first off, let me reiterate that I don't like the term aspirational in the first place. As Calico points out, a goal by definition is an aspirational goal. aspiration: a goal or objective desired (from dictionary.com) I think you're really saying that it's not a fuzzy goal, it's a definite goal (and I agree that would be a point of disagreement, as I do think it's a fuzzy goal.)

 

Let's take one of the examples. A Scout is loyal. A Scout is loyal to those to whom loyalty is due.

 

Can you really say that is a definite goal? It's mostly just a circular definition of loyal. Q: What does it mean to be loyal? A: Show loyalty. To whom? To whom loyalty is due. Well, who's that? A definite goal might be more like "show loyalty to your troop by attending at least 75% of the troop meetings each year." I think it is hard to define those "to whom loyalty is due", in any precise way.

 

I agree it absolutely does mean something. I just don't think that it is a definite meaning. But heck, I think we're just debating semantics or definitions here, so there's not too much point in prolonging this.

 

GaHillBilly, you say "Actually, under at least SOME BSA regs on the topic, the CO should define the precise definition of these terms." Can you point me to those regs? I'd be curious to have a look at them. I think that if a CO actually gave these definitions in a way that was measurable, they would get everyone screaming about how "you can't add to the requirements." (e.g., "As a CO, we define loyalty as meaning that you will show loyalty to the troop by attending at least 75% of the troop meetings", or "We define helpful as meaning you must do at least one-half hour of chores at home at least three days a week.")

 

They absolutely mean something. Are they aspirations? Sure. Goals? Yes. Specific? Not the way I think of it.

[Eagledad]

>>I think it is hard to define those "to whom loyalty is due", in any precise way.

[HICO_Eagle]

Oak Tree, I guess I just don't see it as fuzzy as you but a great deal of my training biases me toward sequential and transitive logic. First you establish a group or list of people or organizations to which you have a bond or obligation. That's the group you owe loyalty to so be loyal. Pretty simple.

 

Who does a Scout owe loyalty to? His family. His friends. His troop. His country. His God (or whatever deity he is reverent toward). Anyone else he has an obligation toward. Perhaps others -- and not necessarily in the order I've listed.

 

Same thing goes with the other points of the Law. This is basically the same way I learned it and the same way I've taught it for 20+ years. It only gets into a semantic discussion when someone starts quibbling because they want an excuse for violating the principle but don't want to be held accountable. My biggest beef with the term "aspirational goals" is that it seems to be a New Age way of saying they can violate the Law and Oath but not feel bad about it -- sort of like Clinton arguing about the meaning of "is" -- which is precisely what's wrong with contemporary society.

[Oak Tree]

Hi Barry,

 

No, I don't think you took me out of context.

 

I agree that we owe Scout-like behavior to everyone (in general). It's the word loyal that gives me some pause here. Loyal generally means showing allegiance to. It's often used with respect to your country. Can you be loyal to someone else's country? Some group of people you haven't met? That just doesn't quite jibe with how I think of loyalty.

 

Benedict Arnold - was he loyal to Great Britain? They may have thought so.

 

Maybe it's just English. When I hear "be loyal to everybody", I hear something like "give better than normal treatment to everybody." That makes no sense.

 

Plus, why would the handbook say "to whom loyalty is due"? Why not just say "to everyone"?

 

I think HICO has the more common definition - showing loyalty to those people with which you have a bond or obligation. I agree that's the definition - I just don't think everyone would agree which groups you have an obligation to. Am I supposed to show loyalty to my company? My town? My neighbors? My extended family? Sometimes we intentionally choose to take on obligations - no issue there. But sometimes people have expectations of loyalty in places where other people don't.

 

HICO - I agree you could come up with a definition of which groups you should be loyal to. I just don't think everyone would come up with the same list. By and large, we might agree on most of it. Certain groups, like your immediate family, are almost certainly included on the list. Certain groups might definitely be off the list (leaders of North Korea, say). But some groups might be on the border. And in practice, I'll show different levels of loyalty to different groups. I'll be very loyal to my wife, perhaps less so to my religious leaders, and maybe not at all to my company (in the sense that I could easily go work for a competitor with no concerns). What do I mean by levels of loyalty? I'm thinking of what level of sacrifice I'd make for them, or how much would I support them even if they are doing something I don't agree with.

[Scoutfish]

Yesterday was my son's birthday. He just turned 9. Yeah, it messes with the advancement and school year.

 

Anyways, he received a particular Nefr Gun from my mom as a gift. As soon as he opened the wrapping paper, I recognized it as one that a friend also gave him just a few weeks ago as a Christmas present.

 

Now, I was just waiting for my son to say : "I have this one already!"

 

Yes, we have went over this thing beofre with my son, but ...well. you knopw how kids are.

 

So leter in the day, I was explaining to him how proud I was that he tghought of his grandmother's feeling and didn't say he already had that gun. I told him it was a sign of becoming more mature.

 

I really expected himto say something along the lines of "Well,you and mom taught me well." or something like that.

 

NOPE! He looked at me and tells me : "Dad, that's the kind of thing a Cub Scout does!"

 

So, wether or not it answers your question...you tell me.

 

But I felt it was a great example of living/ heeding the fundamentals of Scouting!

 

Because it sure wasn't me or his mom he was listening to! LOL!

[Scoutfish]

Yesterday was my son's birthday. He just turned 9. Yeah, it messes with the advancement and school year.

 

Anyways, he received a particular Nerf Gun from my mom as a gift. As soon as he opened the wrapping paper, I recognized it as one that a friend also gave him just a few weeks ago as a Christmas present.

 

Now, I was just waiting for my son to say : "I have this one already!"

 

Yes, we have went over this thing beofre with my son, but ...well. you knopw how kids are.

 

So leter in the day, I was explaining to him how proud I was that he tghought of his grandmother's feeling and didn't say he already had that gun. I told him it was a sign of becoming more mature.

 

I really expected himto say something along the lines of "Well,you and mom taught me well." or something like that.

 

NOPE! He looked at me and tells me : "Dad, that's the kind of thing a Cub Scout does!"

 

So, wether or not it answers your question...you tell me.

 

But I felt it was a great example of living/ heeding the fundamentals of Scouting!

 

Because it sure wasn't me or his mom he was listening to! LOL!

[WAKWIB]

"NOPE! He looked at me and tells me : "Dad, that's the kind of thing a Cub Scout does!" "

 

That was really a good word Mr. Scoutfish!!

 

Attaining the "goals" of the Oath and Law are a process not an event.

Goals maybe a term that doesn't exactly fit. For me personally I view them as tools to guide me along the path of life to be the kind of person my God wants me to be. I first recited them about 39 years ago at my first Boy Scout meeting. I'm sure that had some impact on my development then. However, I went through a very, very dark period of life in my early twenties where I not only fell short of the standards of the Oath and Law but was somewhat the antithesis of them. By the grace of God, I came out of that valley and started the climb again. I'm glad that I could recover those tools from my youthful Scouting days and put them to use again.

I'm very glad to be able to share those tools of the Oath and Law with fellow Scouts and Scouters today as they journey through life.