KMSR to Close

[BadenP]

"the boys and the scouters own the camp not the professionals."

 

Narraticong

I find it hard to believe that you really think your statement has an ounce of truth in it.

Who is it that puts the camp up for sale or uses it as collateral for a council loan, hint: it ain't the volunteers. The SE has the authority, if endorsed by the executive board, to take such action. I don't know about your council but in the ones I worked for as a DE or volunteered in the board has been hand selected by the SE and who usually rubberstamp any action the SE wants to take.

 

On top of that most of these special board meetings that decide these matters are not usually well publicized or are even restricted by the SE, I have witnessed this firsthand. After one such meeting in my former council the SE announced in a letter to all scouters that the bank had foreclosed on the council loan and that the camp and council office were now bank property. None of the volunteers or us DE's had a clue that the SE had taken out another loan with a huge balloon payment that the council was unable to make. It was a shock to all of us and that SE was quickly reassigned to another even bigger council and the executive board all rapidly resigned as well. No matter what is said or written in any publication about who works for who,it is the professional scouters who control all the marbles.

[Eagle92]

A few points. Hopefully no one will think I am a "only go to our council camp" person. I am a "GO TO CAMP" person whether the local camp or OOC. Gotta brag about my SE 'cause he is of the same mindset, although he would prefer everyone to go to our camp. One thing I liked visiting camps was finding out how other camps did things, and bringing back those ideas to my camp. But I recommend going OOC every 2-3 years though. Just my opinion.

 

In reference to the SEs selling the property, yep they can do it. BUT if the property is not being used, and there are financial problems, then it is a way to solve them. Now grant you I think that should be the LAST option, after everything else has been tried to solve the problems, including belt tightening at the council, but it does need to be an option. I agree that once you sell a camp, it is GONE forever.

 

In referecne to the special meetings. Yep it happens and it sucks. Again gotta praise my SE as he has asked for input from everyone on one council property. We've been leasing the bulk of the property to another organization, and now that the lease is up they aren't renewing it. Overnite that section of the property went from being an asset bringing in income to support the program and the other council camps to a liability. Hopefully they can find someone lese to use the land, otherwise they may be selling the land that is not in use. DON"T WANT TO SEE IT HAPPEN.

[le Voyageur]

Maybe the solution would be for several Councils to team up to operate, and maintian just one camp.

[SctDad]

Summer camp is one thing. Yes I know that this is the biggest money maker for the camp. But what happened to al the other weekends that are out there. Why don't you take your troop there for a weekend. Yes it will cost a little money, but that canbe a way of support. If the camp is used for more than just summer camp then it will be harder for the E Board sell it because "it is not used"

 

Use your local camps. Check out their programs. Our local council camp is in the process of trying to put in a BMX track as there are many scouts going to a neighboring council to have access to theirs.

 

Don't forget your cub scouts. They are probably your biggest membership in your council. help to plan a council weekend. Help with staff at one of these weekends.

 

I could suggest more, but I do not have all night.

[NEPAScouter]

shortridge wrote:

Additionally: Is anyone familiar with this study and its results, more broadly for NER? Or about the 15 traits of successful camps?

 

A search on Google revealed the slide set for the report on the Northeast Region's website in the Area News section. http://www.nerbsa.org

 

In case it disappears, here are the 15 traits:

 

1. Camp operates for 6 weeks or more w/900+ campers.

2. Camp income exceeds all year-round expenses.

3. Camp Ranger is full time, exempt, National Camp School Certified Council employee.

4. Camp has detailed maintenance plan that included scheduled major replacements (roof, etc.).

5. Complete operating statements (all income, year-round expenses and operating statistics included) is regularly reported.

6. Camp property 50 miles from other Council properties or is best of those in 50 mile radius.

7. Camp fees cover all year-round expenses.

8. Camp staff - 50% over 18 years with low turnover.

9. 60%+ of Council Units camp in Council camps annually.

10. All Camp personnel requiring certifications have current training cards for the positions they hold.

11. The Camp is Nationally Accredited.

12. Council has a current Strategic Plan that includes current asset and property management plans.

13. Council system tracks year-round property use, Scout and non-Scout users.

14. Council budgets, accounts for and reports all depreciation regularly.

15. Council surveys campers, leaders and staff regularly to determine satisfaction levels.

[Eagle92]

NEPA,

Thanks for posting. WOW under those standards, I know of several viable camps that do not meet criteria.

[scoutldr]

Just looked for something similar for Southern Region, but they just have an announcement that they are closing the doors and moving to Irving as of 31 December. Is this a nation-wide study, or just for NER.

 

Agree...if this is the national standard, my camp is history, too. That's gonna tick off a lot of people.

[Oak Tree]

In Balding Eagle's original post, these are not "standards", they are simply "traits of successful camps", and not meeting one doesn't mean that the camp should be closed, it just means that "something needs attention." Sounds reasonable. There are similar lists of traits of successful Scoutmasters, traits of successful troops, traits of successful den leaders, etc. We're not talking about firing everyone who doesn't meet every one of the traits, just giving a way to evaluate how things are going.

 

And the Area News section of the NER web site is now empty.

[shortridge]

The Powerpoint is here:

 

http://www.nerbsa.org/filestore/regions/neregion/areanews/area5/ASSET_TASKFORCE.pdf

 

[Narraticong]

For those who believe the SE is omnipotent, I say it is only so if you let it be that way. Although I am only one lowly Scoutmaster, the professionals in my council are well familiar with me. If I see something I think needs to be changed at summer camp, I personally discuss with the Director. If appropriate action is taken, his boss finds out with a nice "thank you" email. If my ideas are ignored, or I am given what I believe is a "wrong" answer- we head up the food chain.

 

Remember that each professional in your council has a boss, and an annual review. I guarantee that none of them, including the SE, is so comfortable that they will like a bunch of negative comments flowing electronically to their bosses, whether locally or in Irving. If your ideas are valid, others will gladly jump on the bandwagon. The doors of your Council Office are open during business hours. March right in and make yourself at home.

 

I agree that executive committees are often no more than rubber stamps. I find that most of the members of mine have not spent a night with a unit in a tent in years, if ever. Get to know them. Invite them (politely demand their attendance) to come to Roundtable. Make them listen. Have your Charter Organization Rep contact the SE.

 

We CAN take this organization back and make it the BSA it once was. But we can not do it by hiding our heads in the sand.

 

In the case of KMSR, none of the reasons stated for closing have just happened. They have been there for years. It does look like it has now reach the point of no return. Summer camp is a mainstay of the Scouting program. For CNJC to now consider not offering a summer camp program at all is very telling. Perhaps the professionals will take dollars previously budgeted for camp and move them to a soccer program?

 

Ken

[BadenP]

Narriticong

 

No one said the SE was omnipotent only that the system currently in place with BSA SE's and higher make it very hard if not impossible to remove them, short of criminal behavior, if he is bringing the council to financial ruin. This is especially true because by the time the "lowly scoutmaster" finds out it is usually too late for any corrective action. As far as complaining to his boss, in case you haven't noticed the world of scouting professionals SE or higher is a good old boys network who protect each other to the hilt, except in the case of criminal behavior, when a SE really screws up badly they usually just transfer him/her to another council where they can screw up again.

 

It is a nice idea indeed to "take back the organization" however the top dogs have themselves pretty well fortified against such a move. I agree with you about being vocal even though most of the time it just falls upon deaf ears.

 

Could KMSR have been saved, maybe if the problems had been brought to the attention of the entire council much earlier and the SE was more open to possible solutions from the membership at large. Instead the letter is too little too late and is little more than an obituary for KMSR.

[Eagle92]

Unfortunately BP is correct in that it is an "old boys' network" once you get to that level. I saw someone with NO computer experience get "promoted" to head of SCOUTNET (which explains one reason why SCOUTNET is so screwed up) and another with a history of playing with th membership numbers get promoted to regional.

 

And even is some thing criminal does happen, they may still keep there job. Know one guy had a DWI accident still retain his position, and get promoted to SE. Same person also caused a discrimination lawsuit against the council. BUT he had connections and was able to get promoted. Unfortunately he is still in the movement, but has been demoted to a FD again. Would love to know why he is still a professional, but bet ya it's connections.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[codger]

Guys: Like Narraticong, I, too, attended KMSR as a boy, and now am very sad that it comes to this - closing the camp. Here are some observations:

 

A summer camp program is not only nice to have for a council, but is in my mind the NUMBER ONE priority of a Council. NOTHING else a council does has as much impact as the summer program. Central NJ Council has neglected this for years, since before the merger 10 years ago. Literally, we can get everything else our Council does by internet delivery system and email - except a camp.

 

The septic system problem mentioned in the letter is 100% the professional staff mis-management. The fact is they spent thousands building a new comfort station only months ago. If the septic system was not up to the task, where was the engineering firm/municipal inspections/contractor specs and oversight that could have prevented us from wasting all the money on the building - now we have a new building that sits unused because the septic doesn't work? That is gross mis-management by the professionals.

 

The reason the troops do not attend is that despite having one of the most beautiful lakes in the state (Lake Ashroe) and a great natural setting, the Council allowed the facilities to run down. I camped there in October with my Cub Pack, and was appalled at the unclean, unrepaired state of the other latrines. The camp is flat out unsanitary. Other toilet facilites were stopped up (clearly clogged for weeks or months before our visit), latrines had their frames rotting away, toilet seats ripped loose or missing, beaver-chewed siding on the latrines. I swear that most of the latrines at the campsites have been there since the 1970's. Not a bit of evidence that anyone with a power washer had been there in the last decade. Staff clearly had not even visited our site's bathhouse (with showeres and laundry) in weeks, because there were several sinks with water running 24/7 that could not be turned off. What a waste.

 

Beyond that, the other "camp" our Council has (Yard's Creek Scout Reservation) is in equally bad condition - and has none of the natural beauty that Lake Ashroe has - and it has limited access because a power generating station controls the access road, and every visitor must show ID to even visit! The best plan would be to sell YCSR and use the money to upgrade KMSR. Why this wasn't obvious years ago, I'll never know. Again, professional mismanagement.

 

Frankly, I am so disgusted with my Council's lack of management savvy, that if they do away with KMSR, they should do away with the Council and save National the overhead. What do we need these clowns for?

[emb021]

"No one said the SE was omnipotent only that the system currently in place with BSA SE's and higher make it very hard if not impossible to remove them, short of criminal behavior, if he is bringing the council to financial ruin. This is especially true because by the time the "lowly scoutmaster" finds out it is usually too late for any corrective action.

 

It is a nice idea indeed to "take back the organization" however the top dogs have themselves pretty well fortified against such a move."

 

 

I don't disagree with the issues, but wouldn't call it an 'old boys network'.

 

I am a member of several other organizations. In those, we have paid professionals who handle certain tasks, but its clear that the MEMBERS run the organization, NOT the professionals. I don't have to be fearful of the professionals, as I know THEY (ultimately) work for me. (compare that with the BSA where it seems you need to kiss up to professionals to get your foot in the door at the higher levels of the org)

 

Sadly, West setup the BSA such that the members (we volunteers) don't run it. Instead, the power was supposed to be in the hands of Charter Org Reps, who seldom use their power, and so its been left to the professionals to run the show. When most people know who the CSE instead of the National President, that should show you who runs things. How many people can name their SE more readily then their council president?

 

Heck, the BSA even has materials written along the lines of 'hey you volunteers, here how you need to be acting toward the professionals'. It should be 'hey you professionals, keep in mind the volunteers are your bosses.'

 

To me, it would have to take a total revamp of the BSA organization to put the power in the hands of the members, where it should have been in the first place but never was. That will never happen.

 

 

[Adam S]

Let me preface this by saying this is my opinion, guessing and conjecture Maybe I say something intelligent, but, if not, well... sorry

 

So there is a bit more to this then simply "CNJ council is closing a camp" You need to talk about other camps in the area, the reality that their are fewer scouts, and that we are operating in a cruddy economy. So less scouts to begin with, who have less money to spend... It is easy for us to blame the paid scouters but lets be real; you cant pay for a camp people dont't attend and it just becomes a downward spiral. And let's be honest they all want to stay employed they are working hard to deliver good program, sometimes you get a bad one but, we cannot let that cloud our opinion of them (nor would we want the public to think every volunteer is a kid toucher just because one really was!)

 

North Jersey is CHOCK full of Scout camps!

 

1. This council owns two camps Yards Creek & KMSR, they are within 20 miles of each other. Both camps are at the farthest north point in their council. Convenient to a small portion of their council, the rest of the council is closer to several camps in other councils.

 

2. both these camps are within 20 or 30 miles of the two summer camps owned and operated by the Patriot's Path council(PPC from now on) (Mount Allamuchy S.R. and Camp Winnebago) Northern NJ council(NNJC) owns No-Be-Bo-Sco which is right down the street from Yards Creek... These 3 camps are VERY busy!

 

3. North NJ is about 75 miles across. In Northern NJ you have the CNJ's camps (kmsr, ycsr) PPC's camps (MASR & Winnebago) and NNJ's camps (no-be..., Alpine, Camp Lewis (which is contiguous with PPC's Winnebago, and Camp Yaw-Paw (Which is contiguous with the old Scout camp Glen Gray more on this below!) AND Greater NY Council (GNYC) runs Alpine also (Both NNJ and GNYC havea Camp Alpine, they are contiguous but distinctly seperate camps) PPC also owns a small property in the Hopatcong area which is a hike in camp only (Casperson). So assuming your at the opposite side of the state you could be in any one of those camps in under 90 minutes! There are some states where NJ is smaller then their counties and they have to drive for HOURS to get to camp!

 

So the weird thing about CNJ is it is kind of the "center" of the state but then they shoot up the west side of the state, making an "L" around PPC. So you have Units in the "central" NJ area who can hit central, south and north jersey camps with ease as well as PA camps. You have the folks on the west side up north that do quite a bit with the PPC council anyway (they participate heavily in our events like University of scouting, the centenial council jambo...) so aside from traveling south they gravitate to the PPC camps because they deal with us or no-be-bo-sco because it really is a great camp and it is in the same town as one of theirs... I have no clue if anyone does go to NY, but they are within 15-20 minutes of NY so they probably have a couple close options there as well.

 

CNJ operates Yard Creek as a group camp site, it services the Appalachian trail, and in their letter they clearly stated " We did not think the option of moving the summer camp to Yards Creek was a viable option, because it would also require an outlay of capital money to bring the camp up to minimal standards, and there was no guarantee that attendance would improve, thereby continuing the deficit operation. We actually considered recommending the sale of both properties, but decided that it was important to preserve one property for district events, weekend camping, training, etc. In all, we considered six different options for the camps, and found this to be in our best interest as a council"

 

So this effectively means they are out of the summer camp business, which would be sad if they did not have so many options available to them (Which is probably WHY their camp is closing) While I do think of BSA as "protectors of the outdoors" and holders of a "Sacred Trust", I also believe we are not the only ones with such a trust, nor that we should not encourage others to develop such a duty in themsleves!

 

Living in Parsippany, NJ I am within 45 minutes of a very large amount of scout properties (and honestly I am propbably unaware of a good number of camps! Sorry for the ones I omitted) As the number of scouts goes down, Councils merge, they keep going down, and the large amount of real estate they hold transforms from an assett to a liability. Which brings us to TWO examples of a Council divesting themselves of a property in a GREAT way.

 

First is PPC (by way of one of their formative merger councils, Morris-Sussex Area Council) I am proud to be MSAC alumni because we were home to Schiff, Yep, THAT Schiff! Green Bar Bills NATIONAL Training camp! That went through some wrangling but now it is a Public Park system, with trails, the old houses are preserved and it is really a beautiful piece of land! It would look better with some tents, but thats just me

 

The real success storey in my opinion is NNJ and Camp Glen Gray! They turned the property over to the County Park system. Their honor camper association, The Old Guard, are stewards of the camp on behalf of the county and it really has remained a great property that is open to allot more use. The Scouts still can use it without having to keep the maintenance of it on their budget. I had the privelage of camping there this fall and while I was skeptical of how it would be in public hands, they absolutely have maintained the properties (and shown respect for many of the traditional scouting things like unit signs in the dining hall!) of that camp!

 

If I remember my geography, KMSR is bordered by Stokes State Forest so maybe they can work something out and turn the land over to the State. There are many YMCA, and other "faith" camps in that area of the state so maybe another youth organization would be interested also. I am hoping they go that way istead of selling to developers!

 

I hope this results in CNJ returning to "fighting weight"!