Female leadership in Boy Scouting

[dwalto02]

Moose,

 

I've been in multiple Troops with disgruntled boys due to females on campouts. Especially the boys mothers.

 

[dwalto02]

5YearScouter,

 

There is an art to becoming a man, which you will never be able to fully grasp, just as there is an art to becoming a woman, which I will never be able to fully grasp. Has nothing to do with "scratching butts" or "farting" as you say. Not at all. If you don't understand this, I could never in a million years explain it to you.

 

Good for you the way you are involved in your Troop, and the way you have the boys do things themselves, that's great for you and your Troop, but not what I'm doing in our Troop.

[JMHawkins]

Dwalto,

 

Welcome as others have said. A couple of suggestions. One, if there are more competent adults willing to work as ASMs than there is work for them to do, maybe the Troop should take on more activities? Our troop has 10 SMASMs and we're all busy enough that we welcome every new face who can pitch in. You said the Troop is boy led - boys can sometimes be awfully content to do the same old same old. Maybe you need to challenge them to do more.

 

Two, if you really are "full" at the ASM position and you have already turned down qualified men who want to join, then it would be horribly unfair to those men to let the woman jump the queue and get in ahead of them. "Because she's a girl" is no more reason to give her a position than it is to deny her one.

 

But another thing to keep in mind is that part of the "adult association" method (the good part, the part that doesn't qualify as "sitting around") is that multiple positive adult influences are an important part of a young man's development. Seeing one or two decent men is great for a boy, but seeing those good qualities modelled by several men (and perhaps a woman or two) is even better.

 

Can I ask how many Scouts you have in your troop, and how many ASMs? I'm assuming you're the SM, right? (edit - ah, you've answered already)

 

Oh, BTW, just to clarify things, your CO is not fighting you on the issue. They own the troop and if they decide the troop should have a female ASM (or a female SM) then that's what's going to happen.(This message has been edited by JMHawkins)

[dwalto02]

NJCubscouter,

 

12 - A bunch of boys who have no father in their life

6 - The number of involved fathers

4 - The number of fathers interested in being leaders

 

 

[dwalto02]

Thanks for the comments,

 

The boys run everything they can, and they have PLC's every 2 weeks and they plan as much as they can and do no more. May I suggest the following reading: http://scoutmaster.org/Boy%20Led%20Troop.pdf

 

If you've read my posts, you'll see why I believe for our Troop, male mentoring is preferred.

 

Agreed about mentoring by association with groups. We have plenty of non program leaders, and parents, men & women for that.

 

Read previous posts for number of ASMS.

 

You're right, the CO has the say, which is why the Troop end, but we'll see.

 

[qwazse]

Who better to teach that then a good man?

 

The best teacher. And that is very hard to determine without a trivial run.

 

If y'all have pitched camp 300' from the boys, I sincerely doubt your gender will impede their growth.

 

Our experience with moms in camp has been largely positive. But we haven't had a mom asking to be ASM either.

 

We've never had a problem with too many ASMs. There's always room for one more.

[JMHawkins]

Well, I had a big, long, really well-written response (probably would have won an award!), but the Internet ate it. So, I'll give the (probably better) condensed version:

 

One: get the scouts doing more outdoor activities and you'll have plenty of space for more ASMs. We have 10 for 38 scouts and more would be even better. Get them backpacking by patrol with each patrol going to a different area (meaning two adults per patrol). Get them out for longer trips. More time in the outdoors and it'll be nice to have someone to spell you for a bit. Challenge the boys to step it up.

 

Two: what's going to be better for the boys, to have a troop with a female ASM as an authority figure along with the men, or to have no troop at all and go back to having nothing but female authority figures in their lives? Is it really the right thing for you to drive the troop into the ground over this? Frankly, I agree that male influences are critical for young men of scout age and do not think anyone need to go out of their way to add more female authority figures to the average boy's life, but adding a woman as an ASM is not going to turn your troop into an estrogen bath or prevent any decent men from providing good male role models.

 

Suggestion: sit down with the CC/COR and map out a plan to add enough ASMs to get this woman into the mix. Include in that plan the need for the troop to do enough outdoor activities to keep all the ASMs busy and glad of having help. Challenge the boys to meet the goals of that plan, and keep the troop alive.

 

Suggestion two, if you can't in good conscience and generous spirit do that, then step down now and let someone else take over while the troop is still functional instead of intentionally presiding over it cratering.

[5yearscouter]

Sure there is something to be said for male role models,

there is also something to be said for female role models.

 

A young man at the ages of our boy scouts may not have seen women in very many other positions in life outside of mothers, teachers, nurses, service industry workers.

 

They may have to rethink some of their gender steriotypes when they see a female adult leader hold their own in service projects physical labor, hiking long trails, camping in all manners of locations and weather (and yes, you don't have to have a blow up mattress, cot and a tent), show good scout skills (my favorite, starting a campfire in the pouring rain when nobody else can) and leadership. To learn how to interact with an adult female in a position as ASM is totally different than following the directions of your teacher or mother. they should act as a guide and mentor rather than a authoritative director. These young men have never worked with a female adult in that kind of situation, and it is a life skill that may serve them well

 

you should re-read the

Mission statement of the Boy Scouts of America:

 

"The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

 

 

Vision Statement:

"The Boy Scouts of America will prepare every eligible youth in America to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law."

 

 

How bout the methods?

Patrol Method

Ideals

Outdoor programs

Advancement

Association with adults

Personal growth

Leadership development

Uniform

 

nope, none of those say only men can help the scouts learn and do those things.

 

Boy led doesn't negate adult leadership. There is certainly enough paperwork to go around. And the idea that a female ASM would so negatively effect the troop that the troop would be better off not existing sounds totally past the point of what is best for the boys, off into a bit of a sexist statement that no woman could ever be a good scout leader.

 

As for there being soooo many adults who really want to be leaders in the troop, sign em up. having more registered adults doesn't mean all of them have to go on every campout and get in the boy's hair. But it ensures they are covered by bsa insurance programs, they will become more knowledgeable about the program because they will obviously take the mandatory training, and they allow for less adult leader burnout which becomes a much bigger deal as our boys get older and we've all been doing this for a while.

 

Also keep in mind, that while this all seems soo important when you hyper focus on one part of the program, in this instance, female leadership, but you need to focus on the big picture. Will a campout be ruined because you allow a woman to be ASM--doubtful. if something that occurs is unacceptable, you address that part.

 

But it sounds like you guys would be totally unwelcoming if an adult female were to come on one of your all boy outings, and that is a reason if I were a parent in the troop, I'd want to go on your outing. cause those who protest so loudly about no women as direct contact leaders of the boy youth, often are being sexist in more than just that one area--and I don't think any boys become better men if they are taught, at least subtly that women are not capable of being good direct contact leaders in BSA for our youth, of teaching scout skills, helping with citizenship, or pushing our boys to become better and more ethical adults. I see that as something all adults in the unit can work on together with the youth, regardless of gender.

 

If the COR wants an adult female ASM there is a reason. Finding out the reason is important. it could be because the parents aren't so happy with your all male leadership roles. it could be that the female possible ASM is best buddies with the COR. either way, you don't get to make that decision. And what does it say to the boys if you walk out on their scouting because of a little ole woman. What can be so incredibly scary about adding a woman to your leadership ranks? Or is it that women are only so good enough to be paperwork and support, but not lead in any real way?

 

now Ive been a bit inflammatory in this post,

and I apologize if that is unscoutlike.

maybe it's because you touched a nerve and my feelings are hurt,

 

saying that there is no way I could ever raise a good young man since I'm a woman certainly isn't so nice on your part.

 

perhaps you should go up to the mothers of the boys without fathers in your troop and tell their mothers that phrase.

 

wanna see how long those boys will stay in your troop if the mothers think you really feel that way?

 

 

 

 

 

[ScoutNut]

>>"How can I understand the fine art of becoming a young lady if I've never done it? How can I teach that?

Likewise, how can a women be the best choice for teaching young men the fine art of becoming a man?"

[moosetracker]

Well our newbie is getting stomped upon. I will defend him (just a little).. He did state earlier

 

 

I am a VERY FIRM believer that Girl Scouts for instance has fallen into this trap, and it's been my experience in recruiting for cubs and boy scouts that the girls are DYING to do the same things as boys. Shooting, camping, fishing, etc. I support that and encourage that and fight for it.

 

 

So he has some weird seperation veiw (to the point of quiting if a women ever darkened his doorstep.) But he isn't a total stero-typical Archie Bunker type.

 

There are parents who have been on this forum very upset about some troop with a No-women allowed clause.. They were worried as others stated about their son learning some mis-guided chavanistic values from such a troop. They were recommended to find a different troop. Although the boy should be part of deciding which troop they belong to, the parents do get a say in it if they feel the role-modeling values are totally contrary to what they want their boys to learn.

 

Now I do know that BS is a group single mothers may choose to give their sons the father figure guidence. They would most probably not want a troop with a 100% female SM & ASM.. But, they have never minded a female or two in the mix. As qwase stated, if it is truely a boy run program, if the adults work to stay out of the boys way and only be their for guidence, this is really not a big concern.. Also boys on single family homes learn as much from the male/female respectful interaction, if they suffered through the parents breakup where there were fights and disrespect, this goes a long way to mending those images and giving them good role-modeling of mixed gender interaction.

 

Don't know how you have witnessed anger from your mothers about a female ASM when you don't allow them..

 

There is one religion that does not allow female adult leaders in their BSA program. Not sure if that is LDS or someone else. Are you perhaps from this religion? If so you have no worries of your COR pushing a female ASM on you, and it would explain where your opinions come from. Then we will just have to respect that and agree to disagree.

 

Otherwise you will probably get some more opinions to try to change your mind on the subject, if it is just your unfounded personal opinion. (Because we love debates, and sink our teeth into it with gusto )

[dwalto02]

JM Hawkins --

 

Sorry you lost your big response, but you made up for it

 

My philosophy and your philosophy of boy-run is completely opposite. I wouldn't "get" my troop to do anything. They decide. They plan high-adventure outdoor for every event, and it's more active and outdoors and adventurous and create then any troop I've seen in the past (my whole life in scouting). That's because I don't direct anything, the boys decide it all. They are very content where they're at. I've seen troops where the adults drive them to be over active,and guess what, you're exactly right, more adults are needed. If you are open mined, read this. It's one of the best things I've read on boy-run and it's right on, and exactly in line with where we're at: http://www.doubleknot.com/openrosters/DocDownload.aspx?id=110318

 

Now, that's not to say a less boy run troop is no good, or isn't awesome, it's just not what my troop is doing. Mine is developing strong leaders, independent young men. Not a boys club, with adults running half of it that's a lot of fun.

 

Patrols aren't assigned to go off in different areas. Patrols run the Troop, the way LBP set it up. Patrol go on their own campouts and have their own events independent of the troop, but when they play a Troop outing, their going on it as a Troop, working from the patrol.

 

As far as spelling me... from what? A Scoutmaster should never be busy. If he is, he's not running the program right.

 

Regarding your suggestions: You're missing the whole point. Just like your troop is less boy run and that's okay because you're focusing on a different thing, like being "more active". Well, that's okay because that's the vision you have. It's not the vision I have. Your vision is to give the boys a broader sense of character development to include female influences as you would experience generally in life. My vision (and my leaders) is to focus on the issue that with many boys in America today, there is a lack of a father's influence, which is vital (as you would say) to the development of a boy.

 

Let's try to not put each other in our boxes. Your advice is based on your vision. My point isn't that all Troops should not have female ASMs, it's that mine should be able to and that's a fine choice.

 

[qwazse]

D,

 

Thinking about your stance a little bit more, it seems you have several issues that need disentangled:

1. Your prejudgment that sex differences adversely impacts a youth's upbringing in a scouting environment. For example you don't think you'd be as good a leader of young women as another woman. Well, I can speak to my experience as a crew advisor that the girls in our community have their choice of units with different leaders. A few of them feel strongly that "I'm the guy." I don't think they're mistaken. For other young women, my co-advisor is "the gal." I don't think they're mistaken.

2. The good-old-boys network that you four guys have built. I'm not being negative here. You all have probably worked out a lot of kinks. Probably one of the biggest hassles is coaching an adult in how to serve a boy-lead troop. A newbie means one more set of kinks to iron out. On the other hand, if your troop isn't hurting for that kind of leadership, your district probably is. And, the only way I have ever seen anybody really "get it" is by having them camp with us and pointing out the long list of things they need to stop worrying about.

3. Being pushed around by the CO. This can indeed make or brake you all. If the church is generally a good group to work with, don't walk away from that. Only on rare occasion is the grass greener. I was just talking to a young adult who was reflecting on how he got in the wrong "spin-off" from our troop. He feels that was the main reason he only stayed in scouts for a few years. You don't want Any of he boys to miss out on a great program over divisiveness among adults. And maybe the CO sees something in this woman that you don't, yet. That's just one of the things a church does: call people to service -- sometimes in the oddest places.

 

Now if the CO is foisting this woman on you to make a politically correct move, if they don't like your boy-led mantra, and if they've been overrun by micro-managers who want to control your every move, it may be time to serve scouting elsewhere. But your best chance of getting beyond any of that is welcoming the lady, getting her around a campfire, and being open and honest about your real concerns.

[dwalto02]

5YearScouter,

 

Female role models are extremely important. I believe more so than male models. However the vision we have for our troop to focus on male mentorship. I wouldn't think there to be anything wrong if a girl scout troop wanted to focus on female mentorship, whereas another wanted to have men mentoring them as well.

 

I agree with everything you said that boys learning to think outside the stereotype box is a great thing. As a matter of fact, if you have a Troop that focuses on that, and it's your vision, and you wanted to have a Troop with all female adult leaders, well more power to ya!

 

The scout vision and purpose does not say it should only be men, and neither do I. Check what I've said, I just said that for me, it's a better choice and I'm arguing that.

 

For us, since we're focusing on male mentorship, having a female on an all-boy campout throws off the dynamic and does "ruin" what we're trying to do with that dynamic. Listen, if I was to jump in the middle of a group of girl scouts on an overnighter, hanging around the campfire.... do you think the conversations would be so open with me sitting there in the middle of them? Of course not, I'd mess up their whole dynamic because I don't relate, or understand.... If having that special girl-only gathering moment was important to the particular Girl Scout troop you are leader of... you may not want to have me in the mix, and I'm okay with that. Could I do what the girls do, am I qualified? Sure! But is it the best? Maybe not.

 

I never said a woman can't be a good scout leader, again I just said for us, it's better for our focus, and I believe usually the better choice to have it be a man for now-a-days.

 

About so many adults, I see what you're saying, but in my case, we have leaders fully dedicated, and don't need more cooks in the kitchen.

 

About being hyper-focused... I get what you're saying, but that's just because this is the forum discussion, and because it has been raised as an issue with the CO. We have actually MUCH more important focuses in the Troop, such as Duty to God. This is another aspect of Scouting that has been watered down and pushed to the side in order to promote political correctness. But that's another forum.

 

The COR actually doesn't want a female ASM, they just want to be politically correct and are worried about that is all.

 

I don't think you've been inflammatory in the post, and I didn't think it was unscout like. I'm sorry your feelings are hurt, that wasn't my intention.

 

If I posted that there is no way you could ever raise a young man, I didn't mean that. I was trying to say, only a woman can truly understand the fine art of becoming a young lady and likewise only a man can truly understand the fine art of becoming a young man. It takes more then a dad to do that. If you are a mother raising a son w/o a husband, other men will help raise your son, his male friends as well. Same goes with young ladies, a man raising a young lady alone, needs women and other girls to help with that.

 

The mothers in our troop all know how we feel because it's in the orientation and signed by them and we talk about it. They are always very appreciative of this focus we have with the boys and male mentorship.

 

 

[dwalto02]

ScoutNut,

 

You are right, the policies don't state that specifically. But why isn't Scouts co-ed? Hmmm.

 

I never said ladies can't teach theses qualities, or shouldn't. I said the better choice for teaching men in the ways of becoming a man is to have a man do it. I believe any honest person would agree.

 

Might not like it, might not be politically correct, but it's true.

 

[dwalto02]

Moose Tracker,

 

Your "newbie" and "stomped on" and judging "not Archie Bunker" comments are childish and silly. You ought to take a look at that. Seriously.

 

I totally agree with finding different troops. Different troops for different people.

 

Good point that if it's truly boy-run a few female leaders in the mix shouldn't matter. But if I were to plop myself as a man down at 10pm around a campfire of young girl scouts talking about what they want... I would ruin the dynamic and the moment. This is how they learn to be young ladies, from each other, from their female leaders. I wouldn't want to ruin that. The opposite applies, mere presence removes that dynamic.

 

Not LDS. The COR isn't pushing it, they just want policies to open it up.