Female leadership in Boy Scouting

[Tampa Turtle]

I have seen some excellent female ASM's and SM's but I think that it is important to have the male role models. I see this problem at churches as well--there need to be more men involved with kids and youth modeling that being a man means having character, etc. I think we have raised a lot of selfish guys who would rather do their own thing.

 

But scouting is a great adventure and if having some female leaders means a successful troop -or the alternative is no Troop at all--then my all means do it. It does change the dynamic.

 

[Stosh]

I haven't participated in this thread because I tend to be a bit biased on the subject. I'll admit that right up front. Heck, I'm a old man, well set in his way. I'm from the per-feminist era, Neanderthal a bit as well, chauvinist par excellance, I still hold doors for women and let them go first. I smile nicely when the glare at me when I do so.

 

However, there are certain times and places where separation of groups is necessary and helpful in the development of young people.

 

I've had 40+ years working with young people, 20+ of that in the BSA program. In co-ed groups there are certain social norms/limits/standards one has to adhere to as a courtesy to all, but in a uni-sex group, some of those norms and standards can be relaxed or tightened.

 

There has been more than once when I've come upon a group of scouts sitting around the campfire involved in some rather inappropriate "locker room" types of conversation. In those instances I pull up a log, plop myself down and say, "So you want to talk about girls and sex, sounds like fun." After a rather protracted silence, the subject gets going around a more appropriate dialogue on respect, courtesy and other dynamics more appropriate to the development of young men. Could this happen with 1) a co-ed group? or 2) a female leader? Possibly yes, but it would surely not be as open and honest had it not been with a male leader.

 

On the other hand, had the group around the fire been all girls, I would probably been tossed from the program for such antics. So, yes, I am biased, bigoted, and hold a double-standard on this subject, but then, so does everyone else around me. Can a woman discuss sensitive issues with co-ed groups? Sure. Men, maybe. Can a woman discuss sensitive issues with a male group, yes. A man with a female group, no way!

 

I don't believe our societal double-standards allow for a lot of in-depth discussion on such issues. The social dynamics always underlie leader/scout relations. The new boy at summer camp suffering from homesickness will relate to a "mom figure" female scouter differently than he will relate to a "dad figure" male scouter. Does it make an effective difference? Maybe, maybe not, but will the dynamics be different, yes.

 

Discipline in a troop may be different depending on whether the scouter is male or female as well. Effective? maybe, maybe not, but it will be dished out and received differently.

 

Do I deal in open stereotypes? Yes, but so does the society around me. There are always exceptions to any rules, but those are always on a case-by-case situation and not the "accepted norm". Do women relate differently to female doctors than they do to male doctors? Sure. How many men have female doctors? So before I'm burned at the stake in the proverbial campfire just ask yourself just to what extent are scouters biased/bigoted on this subject, and why would the scouts be any different than the product of their nature and environment?

 

While ideally our society is trying to develop a culture based on equality, every young adult growing up always sees the hypocrisy in it all by knowing that there are differences in people on a number of varying levels. If this concept is hard to get your head around, just ask yourself, when you are out on a backpacking trip with a co-ed group, when someone has to take a whiz in the woods, are different protocols followed? I rest my bigoted/chauvinist case.

 

So can a female scouter do as well as a male scouter? I dunno, depends on the people involved, the dynamics involved and the desired outcome expected. Too many moving parts to come up with a definitive answer.

 

Stosh

[dwalto02]

Quazse,

 

1. I don't believe there's any prejudgement of sex differences. I'm not saying there are things males can do that females can't in life. I'm saying there is a baselilne general personality difference between a man and a woman. Unlike our physical bodies, you may not be able to see it, but it's just as real. If you don't agree with that, well we shouldn't even be talking because I couldn't possibly explain something like that to someone who doesn't see it.

 

2. There's no good-old-boys network. We have women doing very active roles in the Troop, just not ASMs and on boy-only campouts in order to promote the all-male environment that is so lacking in today's society (as well as all-female by the way).

 

3. This is good and helpful advice and very much appreciated (thank you).

 

[dwalto02]

Tampa Turtle,

 

Well said, tactfully said, and I agree.

 

 

[dwalto02]

Jblake47 - Stosh -

 

Thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom in the matter. You were honest, and to the point, and cut out the bologna.

 

On the last number of campouts, there have been some treasured moments where a boy will come up to me and talk about his relationship with his father. I've heard "my dad doesn't like me"... a long conversation follows, with ideas on how to engage his father more. I've had other boys talk to me about some fighting issues at school, wanting to know how to deal with it. This kind of discussion wouldn't be as likely to happen in a mixed environment.

 

Not to say a mixed environment is wrong by any means, but there is something to be said for group dynamics of the same sex.

[qwazse]

D,

 

I'm saying there is a baselilne general personality difference between a man and a woman

That, my friend, is a pre-judgement. You are taking what we all have experienced in a general "baseline" sense and declaring it as justification for disqualifying a particular individual.

 

There's no good-old-boys network. We ... promote the all-male environment.

A rose by any other name ... Your insisting that you don't need a 5th wheel (of any sex) is an indication that you're content with the lock you all have on things. And I can't blame you. New ASMs can be divisive and getting them up to speed is a real hassle. But not even making the effort runs the risk of missing the opportunity to nurture a person in the methods as you've laid them out. We never miss the spare tire until we hit a nail 60 miles from home, do we?

 

Stosh,

They haven't tossed me yet for such antics, although I'm waiting for the day. Of course, venturing age youth are at the point where they need to learn to "talk straight" to a number of adults of both sexes. I'm learning that boys figure they can approach different dads and moms about different topics, so a little diversity is likely more help than harm.

[dwalto02]

Quazse,

 

Well, if you can't recognize there is a baseline difference between the personalities of men and women, then you are either not being honest with yourself, or you live in a different universe than I do.

 

There is something to be said for someone knowing what is right, sticking by it, and working with others who share that vision. A house divided against itself will fall.

 

 

[qwazse]

if you can't recognize there is a baseline difference between the personalities of men and women, then you are either not being honest with yourself, or you live in a different universe than I do.

 

D,

You want to pretend that anyone who opposes you is in denial, and use that as a claim to dismiss their assertion. But, in my post I clearly affirmed we all have experienced [that difference] in a general "baseline" sense. This means that I can recognize that difference. Therefore, I am being honest with myself, and we do live in the same universe!

 

In this universe in which we both live, I have found male SMs and ASMs who are divisive, domineering, backstabbers. (No news there. Your "divided house" reference was originally directed to a male-dominated audience.) And I have met a few female ASMs who are none of the above. And, yes, I have used the "you're not direct-contact" card as a shield from domineering committee members (of both sexes)!

 

The boys notice it too. And you know what? They are willing to forgive the lot of us our faults if they can just go hiking and camping at least every month.

 

I just wish we could dispense grace as readily as the boys.

 

Anyway, you never know who will turn out to be the best adult for your boys. It's like a box of chocolates ...

 

 

[ScoutNut]

>>"But if I were to plop myself as a man down at 10pm around a campfire of young girl scouts talking about what they want... I would ruin the dynamic and the moment. This is how they learn to be young ladies, from each other, from their female leaders."

[JMHawkins]

Yeah, so I know what "boy-led" is. "Boy-led" doesn't mean pizza and video game night is okay for the monthly "outing" even if that's what they decide they want to do. If that's what the boy leadership of a Troop settled on, then it would be up to the adult leadership to redirect them towards more appropriate activities. Likewise, if they're content with a program, even if it's a traditional outdoor one, it might be time to push them to expand their scope.

 

Unless all 3 of your adult leaders are retired men of leisure, I have a hard time reconciling an active troop with the claim you don't need any more ASMs. Every trip needs two deep adult leadership, eh? (wow, I'm starting to type like Beavah...). If you're doing a weekend campout a month plus a week of summer camp for the new guys and a week HA trip for the older guys, your handful of ASMs are going to be pretty busy. And ideally that should be the minimum a troop is doing.

 

Last weekend 4 adults were camping with our troop. It was 4 because we needed that many drivers and the destination was far enough away it didn't make sense for the drivers to just drop off and go home. I only had to remind an adult once to leave something to the Scouts. We've had a couple of split weekends lately where one group of adults goes with the majority of the troop on a trip while a second group works with a smaller group doing service projects at a local campground that will host a big district event next month. This summer we're going backpacking on Mt. St. Helens and it's a 12 person limit set by the USFS, so max of 10 Scouts per party. We have 15 signed up already and more likely to sign up before the cutoff, so we'll need at least 2, maybe 3 parties, which means at least 4, maybe 6, adults to fullfill BSA requirements as the groups will need to hike and camp separtely (the patrols won't be 300 feet apart Kudu, they'll be more like 3 or 5 miles apart). The next month, the SM and myself are going on a week-long kayak trip with the older scouts, and two weeks after that the troop goes to Summer camp. The SM and I can't really afford to take a second week off that soon, so we have three other ASMs going to summer camp. The month after summer camp, we have another backbacking trip with Wilderness Area 12 person limits and multiple groups needed...

 

All of which adds up to plenty of opportunities for ASMs to help out without getting in anyone's way. You're not assuming that every ASM goes on every trip are you? Even at our weekly troop meeting when we have most of the ASMs show up, we spend most of the night standing in a gaggle at the back of the room talking among ourselves about camping gear, chatting with new parents, and occasionally saying "I don't know, you should ask your Patrol Leader about that" to a scout.

 

And BTW, my "vision" isn't to give the troop female role models. My "vision", for your troop anyway, is to keep it alive. If the attempt to prevent a woman from becoming an ASM is going to destroy the troop, maybe that's not a very practical choice?

 

I tend to agree with Stosh's post on the difference in dynamics, and I would not want my son in a troop with a majority female adult leadership because of that. But like I said, having a female ASM isn't going to undermine strong male role models. Not having a troop at all on the other hand, is going to do that for those 12 boys without fathers in their lives.

 

 

 

[dwalto02]

ScoutNut:

 

Thinking there is no art to becoming a real man or a real woman and that it's just "getting older", is a shallow view, and frankly misguided. Ask people around you who you respect what they think. You'll learn about this from them.

 

Everyone agrees, there's plenty of aspects men and women leaders alike can imparte plenty of good things to the boys. However, there's a huge lack in society today of people that understand and embrace differences, respect those differences, and thrive in them. The lack in society I speak of is expressed in your post

 

I respect your vision and I say more power to you! I really mean that too!

[dwalto02]

JM Hawkins,

 

I honestly beleive you are misguided in what boy-led is. Boy led is a quiet, respectful hands-off guidance to the top leader(s) in the Troop based on a personal, positive relationship with them. This can take a long time to develop, and requires quite an investment. Once this happens, when the boys decide things, they tend to ask advice, seek wisdom, out of respect. It is NOT guiding the boys, it's being a resource for the boys, and an example of some good character/decision making qualities/wisdom to have. It's not that simple.

 

We have a fully committed troop. Boys and Leaders. As a matter of fact, they are asked to commit to every event, every meeting unless there's a real, valid reason, and they need to present it. We, as a group adults and boys alike are accountable to each other in this way. There's no problem with leadership coverage at all.

 

We have 1 campout outing per month, all unique, all fun, all boy designed. We have 3 meetings a month, short and to the point they prepare and plan their outings. Everything happens on outings. Service projects and fundraisers come up as they present themselves. Very active, but not like some troops. As a matter of fact, we limit the number of boys in the troop to keep it boy-runnable!

 

Good for you and your ASMS... good for us and our ASMS.

 

If having a femail ASM doesn't undermine, more power to ya. But don't be on both sides of the fence. You'd have to say the same as the SM being female too, after all, just like a VP, when the SM isn't there, the ASM is the SM. Same thing.

 

Good point on the 12 boys with no troop, but I'm trusting the vision I believe God gave me, he'll work that out.

 

Did I say "he"? Oh my

 

[dwalto02]

ALL,

 

I've posted enough here, and said everything in my head, and listened to it all, and taken to heart what I've heard.

 

Thanks for sharing with me.

 

Signing off now. It was worth the time, but I see this can go on forever, so I need to be done posting/reading.

 

Thanks

[Tampa Turtle]

Oops I meant peek. Not that this discourse is not a peak experience.

[Stosh]

Scoutnut,

 

I think you misquoted me on the "only a woman can truly understand the fine art of becoming a young lady and likewise only a man can truly understand the fine art of becoming a young man." I couldn't find that in my post. I don't adhere to it either.

 

And I might not have sat around a campfire with a group of Girl Scouts, but I do have 5 daughters and 2 sons. Does that help? Only 2 were interested in GSA one dropped out early and the other dropped out after Silver Award. I have had responsibilities for co-ed and separate sex church groups, Cubs, Boy and Venturing (co-ed) scouts, tutoring one-on-one with both male and female students, co-ed groups of troubled youth.

 

Yep, I biased, based on 40+ years experience over a half century of observation and interaction with youth. I've watched hundreds of young people grow up. No two ever did it the same way. But there are certain basic patterns they all tend to migrate towards.

 

Stosh