Splitting a troop

[Buffalo Skipper]

In the original thread, it was suggested that that if the Scoutmaster has to delegate certain responsiblities due to the number of scouts, it may be time to split the troop.

If the Scoutmaster has to delegate those, it's time to look at splitting the Troop, it's too big! I've seen, out in a server farm somewhere, several different Commish College theses which say the correct high-end youth count shouldn't be more than 50 kids.

There is certain to be some division here amongst us scouters, but I don't want to turn this into a slam on large troops, but it is something I have not seen discussed here.  So, at what point should the leadership begin considering dividing a troop?  

John suggested 50.  I have read Aids to Scoutmastership in which BP has a section entitled "One Reason Why a Troop Should not Exceed 32."  I agree with BP's ideas here, for the most part, but I look to a slightly larger number, say 40 to 45.  (My thought is that the larger number allows for 2 healthy troops of 20+, rather than the smaller 16, which would only be 2 patrols; BP does not at all discuss splitting a troop, only not going over 32.)

What are your thoughts on this?

[BrentAllen]

I have never seen it done, successfully. The largest Troop in our district is right at 100 Scouts. They tried splitting a number of years ago, and it didn't work. I don't know the full details, just going on what I heard thru Scouters in that unit. I'm sure there are Troops that have split successfully, and I would be interested in hearing how they did it.

 

I do know of at least on church that charters several Troops. I don't think they split, but started up new units. I think what you see there is a motivated CM or Webelos leader is moving up and has a group of boys that would like to be in a smaller Troop. They start the unit, and most likely pull some membership from the large Troop, probably Scouts and families looking for a small-Troop experience.

[Stosh]

Adult-led troops would max out at 20-30 boys (size of a standard classroom of students).

 

With Boy-led one should be able to go quite bit higher than that.

 

An adult should be able to know just about anyone in a group of 200 people (like a pastor in a church congregation). But that's pretty much it when it come to one-on-one with a single adult (SM). If one wishes to go beyond that, one's going to need a strong PLC to handle a larger grouping and the SM isn't going to be able to do all the one-on-one he/she may wish to do.

 

Stosh

[eisely]

I am not aware of any successful splits of existing troops, but then I have never seen it tried. A more sensible approach would be to limit the size of existing troops by limiting intake, thus encouraging the formation of new troops.

 

I don't know when a troop is too large. When I first started out in scouting as a lad, the most successful troop in town had over 200 scouts in it. Some patrols had more scouts than other troops.

[Twocubdad]

Not long after we started Cub Scout -- I suppose 8-9 years ago -- our troop was at about 100 boys and decided to split. It got ugly. Among other things new troop tried to cherry-pick it's members and recruited only the "right" people to go with them. As it turned out, mostly the younger boys and leaders went to tne new troop. They were the ones with the younger brothers in the cub pack. Those boys were locked into going to the troop with their older brothers and they convinced their friends to go with them too. For about three years all the Webelos from the pack went to the new troop.

 

I was Cubmaster at the time and had to juggle all the conflicts between the two troops over Webelos campouts, Scout Sunday, Crossover, etc. More that once I thought about telling them both to put it in their ear and go with a third troop.

 

When my older son was a Webelos II he and a few of his friends decided to go to the old troop. But by then the average age in that troop was 15-16 and there was no thought of a new Scout program. The troop did very little camping. The older guys like going shooting or climbing or the like, but at the end of they day they were more than happy to head to the house.

 

The whole "split" thing just about destroyed the troop. It's been a very long process to get the troop back to where we are today -- easily six years. And the other troop isn't fairing any better. Because they don't have a "brother pack" (I really don't like the term "feeder") their membership is very stagnant. For the past couple years they've been on the brink of folding.

 

Needless to say, I am strongly against splitting troops. What do you do with a 100-Scout troop? I don't know, but I've not seen a split work. My suggestion would be talk with your district executive about the need for additional troops and especially packs in the area and working with the district committee to grow more units. Most mega-troops are fed by mega-packs. More and smaller packs will eventually lead to more and smaller troops. It's a long-term solution, but doesn't include the bloodshead that most "splits" do.

 

T

[moxieman]

The only times I've seen a troop split hasn't been due to having too many youth. It has been due to some adult leaders not getting along with other adult leaders within the unit. So, one group goes off, finds another sponsor and starts their own unit.

 

Which ever set of leadership runs scouting the "right" way thrives and the other unit dies within a few years. So, no, I've never seen a troop split successfully, unless you define successful as eliminating "bad" leadership.

 

And because the DE is suppose to form new units whenever he/she can, these new units get formed without trying to look at the problem that caused the split and attempt to settle those problems.

 

I saw one case where the Chartered Rep fired the scoutmaster. SM, simply formed a new unit with a different sponsor. CR must have had good reasons 'cause that new unit didn't last long--couple of years. Unfortunately, the SM drew all the youth and other adults with him to the new unit, so the then original (and 50 year-old) unit died.

[Eagledad]

>>So, at what point should the leadership begin considering dividing a troop?

[Kahuna]

It depends entirely on the people involved. Some SMs can run a 100 or 200 boy troop. Most can't. Big troops are great, IMHO. They can own buses, lots of equipment and go places smaller troops can't. However, it involves a lot of time and management skills by the adults.

 

Splitting is not usually an easy process. Sometimes it's better to establish a waiting list and let the troop go down to a comfortable level.

[artjrk]

Splitting can be successful. Ours is a case in point. At one time there was Troop 157. It was successful and grew. They decided to split off a group of scouts and formed Troop 1570 (my current troop) back in 1992. 157 continued to succeed and they did it again, Troop 1577.(late 90's) Currently all three troops are succeeding, two with membership just over 50 boys with the newest one closer to 100. In town there are two other troops and several others on the edges. Living in the suburbs of DC helps. All these kids go to the same high school so Camporees are great in that we know everybody.

 

One downside could be competion in recruiting. But the other two SM's are in agreement with me. We don't care so much which Troop a Webelos crosses over to, just as long as he does. All the local programs are good.

[Knot Head]

It would take a very mature set of adults to split a good troop and not have fights like the ones mentioned above.

 

Seems like it would be better to just start a new troop if someone wants a smaller unit.

 

Our roster is 53 this year. That's about as big as I'd like to see it get. Big enough to be well equipped but nible enough to go camping without taking over a fast food joint or campsite. Usually we run aboout 30 on an outing.

 

 

[gcnphkr]

I suspect the more common type of split is the creation of a Venturing Crew. Older scouts are getting bored and do not want to engage with the younger scouts. They form a crew. They may recruit from the troop for a couple of years but eventually the Scouts stop joining. Slowing the number of older scouts builds up and the original crew has dissolved and another new crew is formed.

[eghiglie]

One thing to keep in mind if you split is where the troops will recruit from.

 

In my area we have a collection of small troops and we compete for every boy at the two Middle Schools. Its a challenge. Granted the prospects have lots of choices.

 

Some of the small troops were actually together at one time, but things happened and everyone (adults) had to go do their own thing.

[Buffalo Skipper]

As always, I appreciate your thoughtful and complete replies. Let me reiterate that this is a hypethetical discussion here, but I am curious about the real-world experience. Our troop is neither large enough to split, nor am I (or any of our leaders) at odds with anyone. I have for years laid the groundwork for growth in the troop, and we may become a larger troop in the coming years.

 

I many of you talking of the wonders of larger troops (and I would like to hear more on that). From the early 70s through the early 90s , this troop had 60-80 active members, a large troop by local standards. I was in a more modest sized troop, which consistently hovered around 25 registered/18 active. Few of the places where we camp would handle a troop of this size, so it makes it difficult to conceive of where we could go to set up 25 tents in groups of 3s or 4s (patrol sized) and keep these 6 groups even 50 yards apart. (Sure wish I could hear Kudu's take on this). Even worse, areas where we backpack have small campsites, and how do you backpack with 50?!?

 

I have heard many of you talk about "limiting troop size." We had one troop do that some years ago--a very healthy and stable troop (SM and I had been in the same Wolf den), which limited troop size. Both transferring scouts and new scouts were reviewed by the committee before being allowed to register with the troop; they kept their registered number around 30, and inactive scouts were booted out. I do not believe that this is a healthy way to run a troop, as scouting should be open to all, and troops should not be some private "boys' camping club." I know of 3 webelos who quit scouting after being turned down for this troop, and I wonder how many more were lost because of this troop's policy. Sorry, I don't want to limit troop size, but neither will I tell a scout "we don't need you, go play somewhere else."

 

One last question about large troops (say 60+), how do you maintain a patrol integrity on campouts, especially where you are in smallish campsites? I am curious to hear about how your larger troops run.

[gcnphkr]

We are just over your threshold with 65 on the charter with about 2/3 at any troop meeting. Camping attendance averages ~45% attendance.

 

Camporees are the worst for maintaining patrol integrity. Lots of scouts packed into a very small space. I've considered registering each patrol as separate units to spread them out, but I don't think the powers that be will allow it.

 

Summer camps are next, although the last two years we were in two adjacent campsites.

 

More and more we will do the backpacking by patrols with troop doing short training trips for the new scouts. Very few trails will allow more that 12 in a party so they need to be split up anyway.

 

We try to either use dispersed camping areas in the forest or get multiple camp sites at camp grounds. With 6 patrols and adults we would need about 12 acres to get 100 yard separation. We are more likely going to run 25 (too close)to 50 (not bad) yards which only takes 1-3 acres. Adults will be closest to the NSP with other patrols more distant.(This message has been edited by jet526)

[moxieman]

The largest my home troop ever got was 4 full patrols of 8 scouts and that was back when I was a youth. So, I can't provide much advice on running larger troops, which gets away from the original post/question of this thread (and I've already commented on what I've observed in regards to that).

 

As for Camporees, in this district, we base the size of the site your unit is assigned on the number of Pre-registered adults/youth in the unit. If you pre-register with 20 and show-up with 30, we'll do our best to accommodate you if there's room. Otherwise, you're getting the space set-up for 20 'cause that's how many you told us were coming. We try and provide a 50 by 50 ft area for 12 people (this is similar in size to the assignment provided by Scouts Canada for their events). It all depends on the venue the camporee is happening at as to whether or not we can make camping areas larger than that per group.

 

As others have stated, you can't really take LARGE groups backpacking all together. But why not split'em up into patrols and have them all hike different sections/routes depending on where you're going. Slightly smaller groups--say 24 people can be split in half and hike the same section in opposite directions--have half drive to the start point of the hike and the other half to the "end point" of your hike. Pass each other and exchange car keys (DON'T FORGET TO SWITCH KEYS!!!) on the trail and then take each others vehicles back to your rendezvous point. I've seen several local troops do this while hiking portions of the Appalachian Trail.