Camporee attendance

[Midnightflyer]

We had our Fall Camporee last weekend and the attendance was really down for a Fall Camporee. We have 16 Troops in our district, on Friday night we had four Troops camp, two called saying they were coming Saturday morning, with one additional Troop coming out for the day. I talked with a couple Scoutmasters whose Troops did not come, and told me the boys voted at the last minute not to come. I have not talked to the rest of the leaders to find out what or if there were any conflicts. I seem to have a hard time getting any commitment from a lot of our Troops, one way or the other. We give discounts for early registration, but only a couple of Troops take advantage of this. Everyone that came to Camporee seem to have a good time, or at least that was the impression I got in talking with the Leaders and some of the Scouts. Is any one else seeing this? Any thoughts or suggestions would be helpful.

 

Yours in Scouting,

Dave S.

[Mike F]

Dave,

 

First off, welcome to the virtual campfire! We need to stock up on plenty of firewood and put another big pot of coffee on the fire. This chat could go on until dawn.

 

Its a complicated and controversial situation. Ill throw my top ideas out to get things started. Others are going to disagree.

 

Scoutmaster expectation. Something I stress is that of course we support the District/Council program. If PLC wants to take it up for a vote, were going to do a lot of talking and Im not sure I would overrule them, but I try to avoid it by just staying positive about the fact were going. Not everything is a PLC vote. We dont have a vote on going to summer camp of course were going to summer camp. We just work on the where and when.

 

Fear of Failure. Guys dont like to go out in public and look bad. They embarrass themselves when they enter competitions with other guys from the community and suffer from combination of poor leadership or weak skills. You can see them slinking away from an event they just bombed, trying to make a joke of it, or deciding to spend the afternoon in campsite because this stuff stinks.

 

What contributes to this?

 

a. Patrol structure. In our District, the consistent winners use the old-school mixed-age patrols. Stronger natural patrol leadership seems to help the patrols succeed in competition. These patrols some of whom have been around for 10-20 years or more have a strong spirit which shows.

 

b. Skill programs in troops. Some troops have great skill advancement classes for rank, but dont incorporate hard-core skills into their ongoing program, so retention and confidence are really low. Ive seen countless patrols struggle to do a simple 3-leg compass course just like the one that was done the last 8 years.

 

c. Expectation in Troop. Directly related to above, some troops dont expect the older guys to know and use their skills. Ive heard leaders say Camporee was really only for the T-2-1 scouts.

 

d. Too few scouts & temporary patrols. It really shows when a competition patrol has been put together with pieces of two or more patrols. These guys almost always struggle. I think a patrol with just 3-4 members should compete as a patrol. At least theyre with their buddies and they should be commended for being in the game.

 

e. Lack of preparation by Troop/Patrols. Some troops use camporee as an opportunity to refresh their skills and intentionally prepare for the competition. They do great not just in the events, but in the overall spirit. You can tell the guys have been working at improving their skills and teamwork and theyre excited to come put it to the test. The other guys who just show up and struggle through the events arent having any fun at all. If guys have been working toward the camporee competition and are excited about it, you dont have attendance and temporary patrol problems, either.

 

f. Lack of preparation by Camporee staff. If you want to give troops the chance to work the skills into their program, start working early to let them know what the events will entail. Well organized events/camporee make you want to come back for more. Must have dynamic speakers for campfire, awards ceremony, etc. Fast and Funny are crucial! Get buy-in from leaders at Roundtable. Have discussion about how the successful troops prepare. Theyre not trade secrets we all benefit.

 

 

Im going to finish up with a different story about how PLC can influence for the better. A few years ago, our PLC (with a little nudging from me) decided they were tired of getting thumped at camporees and it was time to do something about it. They put together every camporee competition event they could remember and started running patrol competitions on many campouts and troop meetings. Patrols know ahead of time, so they can practice at patrol meetings (separate from troop meetings). After they went through every permutation they could remember of the fire-building, compass course, first aid, knots, lashings, etc., they started coming up with their own. In a short time, these guys went from reluctant participants into fierce competitors. Now they cant wait for the next camporee. Not just to square off against our sister troops, but to establish bragging rights within the troop for top patrol.

 

As always, your mileage may vary.

 

[dg98adams]

In our Troop, the Outing ASM got the Troop together for a survey on activities....the older Scouts did not want to do camporees for similar reasons listed above. The PLC does not "bring activities" to the table, which IMO is a fault of the SM for not prepping the PLC in their jobs as far "as short & long term planning".

 

I mentioned the new Scouts were not represented yet (as this took place in Jan before crossovers).

 

This impacted OA call outs at the Spring Camporee (they almost missed it, it took a last minute reminder from me).

 

I think the older Scouts never did get challenged because the skills they worked up in T-2-1st were allowed to get rusty.

[oldisnewagain1]

A couple of other thoughts on poor attendance at the Camporee;

 

What was the weather forecast for the weekend? Perhaps the thoughts of a cold rain (or snow) filled weekend was a deciding factor for some troops.

 

Could sickness have played a factor? For example, my daughter elementary class has 21 students in it. Yesterday there were only 8 students in class with the rest home sick.

[Twocubdad]

A few thought from a troop which no longer participates in camporees:

 

-- Camporees exist to support the units, not the other way around. Our troop has a full schedule of campouts, usually one every month. We have a very successful outdoor program without participating in the district camporees. What does it mean the we need to attend camporees to "support the district"?

 

-- There seems to be an assumption that camporee = skills competition. Why? Well, generally because it's easy. Everyone here can rattle off a list of 12 or 15 competition stations without much thought. First Aid, knot tying, pioneering, fire building, orienteering, hoist your gear over the creek. The big thing here the last few camporees we went to were stations based on dish washing. Gee whiz! It was like Disney World -- kids lined up to go through that one over and over! It's a whole lot more work to put together sexy programs of interest to the Scouts. How about a demonstration from the fire department swift water rescue team? Or something from one of the local military reserve units? A mass-casualty exercise by the local rescue squad? Overnight program by the local astronomy club? All that's a lot of work and logistics to arrange. But I can throw together a dish washing station in 20 minutes.

 

-- MikeF is exactly right in all the things it takes to be competitive at a camporee. But what if my Scoutmaster, in his infinite wisdom and descretion as Chief Program Officer of our troop believes that age-based patrols is a better fit for our Scouts and leaders? Or if our unit emphasizes service at the expense of Scout skills? Should our troop change how we run our program to accommodate one camporee?

 

-- I can go on and on about the insane rules and bureauracy that has developed around our camporees over the years. Everytime a problem or issue would arise a rule would be created. They're now more of a barrier to participation than anything else. The details a very specific to our local event and wouldn't mean much here, but ask yourself: does that sound familiar?

 

-- Old-boy politics. Nuff said.

 

Midnightflyer, I don't mean to discourage you. I ran many district events at the cub level and know well the time, commitment and dedication it takes to pull off an event like that. I can imagine how disheartening it would be to go through all that and have a low turnout.

 

But I would encourage you -- actually the whole district -- to ask themselves some questions:

 

1. Do we really need/want a district camporee? Do the units have a strong outdoor programs without one? If only a few units need or want help with campouts is there a way the district can better serve them other than a camporee?

 

2. Is the event fresh or do we do the same thing every year? How could it be reinvigorated?

 

3. What do the Scouts want to do? Have you ever asked? How many districts have a PLC-style steering committee to get Scout input on the event?

 

4. If it is a competition, what's it's purpose? Can we have a competition which reinforces more than just Scout skills? How can we reinforce other elements of the overall BSA program?

 

5. Is the competition fair to all the units or just the ones run like "my" unit?

 

6. Is the camporee meeting the needs of our units? When was the last time we asked?

 

[eaglescout1996]

It's usually a combination of everything Mike said.

 

I'll give you an example of my latest experience with our Fall Camporee....

 

I just moved to a new Council/District, and I jumped right in and volunteered to be on staff for the camporee which was coming up three weeks after I turned in my adult application. I was running a "knot relay" and I purchased the rope and decided on the eight knots to have each patrol go through (it was a timed course). I was told by the camping chair that competitions would be in the afternoon and that "refresher" courses would be in the morning. So I went out and purchased small cord and cut it into 2ft pieces for the refresher. In each 45 minute block, I had about 4 patrols I was trying to go over 8 simple knots...I was able to get through 4 (overhand, square, bowline, and timber hitch), because of the lack of basic scout skills many of the boys had.

 

Our camporee was aparently the best attended in about 5 years with 147 boys total participating. The problem is, that there are a lot of Scoutreach units, in which one Paraprofessional is the only leader for 3 or 4 units. Hardly any of the boys (except from 2 units) had ever tied any of those knots before.

 

The sad thing is that you have a large group of boys, who don't have proper leadership (the Council is doing the best they can with the Paraprofessionals), come from single parent households, and whose parents probably weren't exposed to the skills that Scouts teach. Throw them in to competitions with a few patrols from very well organized Troops, who have great programs, and the self esteem of the boys plummet, since all the competitions are being won by the patrols from the same two Troops. No wonder they haven't been coming to District events, they don't want to show their lack of knowledge with basic Scout skills.

 

Boys don't like to fail...and when they get exposed out in the open that they don't know what other boys their age do, they feel really bad. I was "giving hints" to some of the boys who were struggling with some of the knots durring the competition, I allowed them to tell their buddies how to do it, but not acutally tie the knots for them. During the competitions, they were having a great time and it was wonderful seeing their eyes light up when you gave them praise for a job well done (I had to constantly tell the boys to cheer on their buddies), but at the campfire, you could see the dejection on their faces after those two other Troops basically walked away with everything.

 

I really felt bad for most of the boys in Scoutreach units, I want all boys to have the same wonderful experience in Scouts that I did. Although many might not advance very far, they all have some great Paraprofessionals leading them, and their getting great mentorship from them.

 

I really think the fear of failure infront of your peers is the biggest motivator from not going to Camporee, and that maybe what happened in your case.

 

(sorry for the long post!)

[shortridge]

This is off the topic, but how does one paraprofessional lead 3-4 units at the same camporee at the same time? Has Irving invented cloning?

 

I'm not trying to criticize... I just don't understand the logistics of how that works when all the troops are attending the same event.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[SMEagle819]

Twocubdad hit it square on the head with his explanation/reasons. We are going this evening to our District Camporee. At first, we were not going to go. However, we really need to recruit new members, and a Den of Webelos that one of the scouts is a Den Chief for requested us as the "sponsor" for the weekend. The PLC changed their mind in a hurry, because they realize how important it will be for us to get an infusion of new scouts come crossover.

 

Here is one more reason to add to Twocubdad's list: too many council/district events planned within weeks of each other. For example, our district camporee is this weekend. Then, next weekend is the kickoff for Scouting for Food in the council (troops go house to house placing grocery bags for donations to the local food pantry). The weekend after that is picking up the food bags. Two weekends prior was OA Fall Fellowship. I have asked why our district consistently plans the camporre in the fall with all of these other events going on, but really have never gotten an answer. I cannot remember when we had a spring camporee when district and council events are relatively quiet.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Last weekend (Oct 16-17-18)was the Disitrct I serves Fall Camporee. We don't have a Spring Camporee any more as no one will put it together. We sorta had a system of rotating troops who would organize it, but it seems like the same three troops have done the last 6 and they didnt want to continue so the OA organized this one. of course, with the OA organizing, the older boys are off staffing, not helping their younger members.

 

I was helping in my Shooting Sports Role, I was the RSO and another scouter was the NRA instructor. We were talking about the next Fall Camporee and I suggested that perhaps a Patrol Method Theme would be a good idea. From the time they hit the Camporee Parking Lot until they pack up the stuff, they functin as patrols. No Camping as a Troop, they camp as a patrol. Everything was to be done by patrol. My buddy listened, his eyes brightened at my suggestion, but then said he doubted any troop in the Disitrct had one patrol who could function that way. I wept

 

I repeated my idea to the OA Chapter Advisor who wasnt sure if we had the Patrols camp as patrols, how the troops would know who was where. I didnt tell him the patrols should be 300 feet apart.

 

The whole Troop/District dynamic is a fun one. Unless the District can do "fun exciting" things then why should troops attend Disitrct functions, yet the Disitrct is composed of the Troops wanting the District to provide fun exciting events. It does seem like a vicious cycle. We have people who virtually dare the District to organize things but will not help to organize because its not their job. Maybe it isn't but sniggering off in a corner how poorly run things are does nothing to improve the situation either.

[boomerscout]

I believe Mike F is spot on! No matter how well we may believe we are doing for our own troop, it helps to get out in the world and and do onsite comparisons with other troops.

 

We had our eye-opener long ago when our NSP (adult-led until they are signed off on T'feet, then they join regular patrols or form a new one) turned in better scores than our seasoned boy-led patrols. We were all slacking off!

It is hard, sometimes, for a novice to compete against a pro. Perhaps Camporee staff could have separate awards--some for older troops, some for brand new troops (or patrols)

One good way to increase attendance is to offer a really boffo Camporee patch.

[eaglescout1996]

No problem Shortridge...

 

Many of these "Troops" are 2, 3, or 4 Scouts or so. They aren't that large, so at a district event, the "Troops" of each Paraprofessional are brought together to form a Troop of their own. It was a little confusing when running my event and I would ask for the Patrol name and Troop number. I would get, "Troop 2600" and someone would say, "but I'm in Troop 456"....so I just had them pick a patrol name (something cool) and told them to identify themselves as the "bleeding bobcat patrol" for the rest of the day, even if they were from more than one troop.

 

These Scoutreach Troops are opperating like Lone Scouts, except theres a couple of boys together.

 

Hope it explains it a little better. I agree that it's not ideal, but better than nothing.

[boomerscout]

I have no experience with Scoutreach. I am wondering if District should send a trainer to assist the paraprofessional. Trainer would visit a different troop each week, and train them in his specialty--sort of like a traveling/visiting teacher's aide??

[CNYScouter]

Our District Fall camp-o-ree was last weekend.

Only 3 units and 30 Scouts showed - 17 of these were from the Troop and Crew my son and Daughter are in.

 

As the District doesn't have an Activity Chair, and no one stepped up to host, the District Commissioners put something together at the last minute.

 

I'll agree with seeing a lack of basic scouting skills.

 

At almost every camp-o-ree there is some type of map and compass skill involved

most of the units there can't do them nor do they bother learning them for the next one.

 

forget doing any type of lashing competition - most units don't know how to do them and most just skip the station.

 

Some of the lack of attendance has to do with the cost.

we were having a problem with units not signing up until the last minute or doing so at the door.

So they raised the cost for last minute signups - instead of signing up early - units just don't come.

 

The other issue is that District events are expected to run a surplus of $.

This surplus is figured into the councils yearly budget.

I've seen the event budgets and there is often 40% to 60% surplus $.

Because this is budgeted in, if an event has a surplus of $200 and was budgeted to have $400 it goes down as the district event lost $200.

 

Alot of units are not happy with this arrangment and is a big reason while we can't get some one to host

 

 

 

 

 

 

[eaglescout1996]

I know I'm getting a little of topic, but it could work. Our lodge actually has an OA Scoutreach mentoring weekend, were members of the lodge work with Scoutreach scouts at camp on basic out door skills like, knot tying, cooking, ect.

 

This last camporee was the first time a couple of units had actually camped in almost 2 years.

[boomerscout]

"Because this is budgeted in, if an event has a surplus of $200 and was budgeted to have $400 it goes down as the district event lost $200"

This is how old-fashioned corporate accounting was done. Probably is still done this way. I always felt this was the dumb way.

 

I feel Camporees are very IMP, else you may get too insular. If district & its troops have neither money nor inclination for a Camporee, maybe they can host a Camporee Day. Take over part of a local park/rec area for the day and run the events from dawn to dusk. Get the park staff involved for nature walks, have a tent & awning company donate the rental of a large activities tent, find a large corporate sponsor for a mass hot-dog cookout for lunch...