What is a certified BSA firearms instructor

[wecamp4fun]

Thanks for all the posts. I am not averse to getting training, I was just wondering what was meant by Certified BSA Firearms instructor. It appears that I will need to pursue the NRA training classes so I can host Troops at my club. I will never be hosting at a Scout Camp.

 

One thing I have often wondered though, how many of these Council Summer Camps have an NRA RSO and NRA Instructor or someone who has gone through the BSA certification process? I have seen a couple of camps that have one Counselor running the venue that I wonder what their training is. I am not suggesting that they are being unsafe, just whether they have read the G2SS and understand the requirements. When I first signed up to be a MB conselor, the requirements did not include this.

 

And finally, I always have preached and practiced the safety thing, after all they are real bullets!

[shortridge]

One thing I have often wondered though, how many of these Council Summer Camps have an NRA RSO and NRA Instructor or someone who has gone through the BSA certification process?

 

All council camps that have passed inspection must have a shooting sports director on site who is at least 21 years old and holds a current National Camp School shooting sports director's card. That is a mandatory camp standard. If they have a rifle range, they must follow it.

[le Voyageur]

I've always found it interesting in that BSA requires either this cert, or that cert for certain program areas. But, absoulutely no experience, or tenure for those certs. As an exampe,consider who would you want running your Range at camp. A 21 year old with an NCS card, and no Range experience other then a week at NCS. Or, a RSO with over 20 years of experience, but no NCS card?

Besides Shooting Sports, this lack of a tenure/experience requirement is also seen in Climbing, Cope, and Trek....

[Crew21_Adv]

wecamp4fun,

 

Just to clarify. I believe completion of the NCS SSD course still provides you with all the NRA literature for rifle, shotgun and muzzle loading; and the NAA literature for archery. But even more so, the NCS SSD instructors are certified NRA/NAA instructor trainers; and they provide the NCS learner with the NRA and NAA instructor credentials.

 

I guess what I want to say is this...... (without reviewing my camp standards literature)

 

An SSD is a NRA instructor (two separate certifications need to be applied for and maintained).

 

An NRA instructor, a military range officer or a police range officer can be a scout camp Range Officer, but not a Shooting Sports Director.

 

Not trying to change your mind. But just to clarify on the certifications (as I recall).

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[Eagle92]

Voyageur

While I never did the Shooting Sports Director cert at NCS, I did one of the other high risk areas, COPE Director. I can tell you the course I went through was intense, with very long hours and lots of hands on. Also had to do rescue scenarios. Did I say it was intense.

 

Now grant you I did a COPE course 2 years earlier, and was a climbing and "absailing" instructor in the UK the summer before which did help out a little (there are differences though). But I was the youngest trainee at 22, with the least amount of experience, and I did hold my own with the others in the course.

 

Now the 2 special forces guys in the course with me, well I think they could have taught the course!

 

(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[OldGreyEagle]

Not to pick nits, but what the hey, the Guide to Safe Scouting says this about Boy Scouts and Rifles:

 

All rifle shooting activities must be supervised by a currently NRA -certified Rifle Instructor and when on the range, must be supervised by a currently NRA-certified Range Safety Officer.

 

The same rules apply to shotgun, Muzzleloaders and in Venturing Handguns.

 

In the G2SS there is no wriggle room about having a Military or Police Range Officer rather than an NRA certified Range Safety Officer. I am not saying they wouldnt have the skills, but they arent listed in G2SS. Do the Camp standards make such allowances?

 

It would help if all shooting regulations were in one spot, "To sleep, perchance to dream-"

[shortridge]

le Voyageur,

 

There's no experience or tenure requirement for ANY summer camp area director position, as a matter of fact. If you've got the skills, you can get the certification.

 

If you required tenure or several years of experience at a certain level (say two or three years as assistant director before moving up to the director's job), no BSA camp in this country would be able to operate. They rely heavily on that corps of college students to fill their positions, cycling through a new bunch every couple of years.

 

The number of people with solid years of experience in aquatics, shooting sports, climbing, trekking, etc., that can take the whole summer away from their families and jobs to work at camp is miniscule. It's not like there's a huge population of itinerant climbers or marksmen shifting around the country looking for work every summer.

 

Yeah, I'd feel much more confident if my camp's aquatics director was in his or her 40s and had been a YMCA lifeguard instructor for the last 10 years and held certifications in fast-water rescue. But that's not going to happen unless you can pay them year-round. And there's NO way that's going to happen when some councils can barely pay the fundraisers.

[BadenP]

Shortridge you are so right on in your post which makes me wonder how safe are the kids really at camp when it comes to shooting sports or aquatics? Camp school, which I have been to, is intense but the lack of real life experience is very apparent in many camps I have been to over the years. And sorry Crew021 a BSA camp school shooting credential is NOT the same as an NRA certification, and as I said before outside a BSA facility it has no value or credibility. While all councils have money issues shooting and aquatics at camp are not areas where they should be cutting corners, one serious accident or death and that camp and council would be gone for good.

[Gunny2862]

In my understanding and either direct experience or what I have been told by our Camps Range operators and and by the Council Staff:

The NCS our folks have gone to have always had NRA staffers teaching the courses - the NCS students came away with the proper NRA certs. I haven't been there, I have no firsthand knowledge of this.

 

As to the Military thing, there are a lot of folks out there who have literally years of time on ranges - who have or had military certifications - who might well be able to operate a BSA range - EXCEPT BSA require the NRA certifications. Which is fine.

 

There are alot lots of self-aggrandizing folks with no training but lots of range time as shooters who would enjoy the thought of being in charge of that situation - they in particular need to be kept out of the positions until they get some training - from wherever...

 

But is the youth on that range any safer with an NRA instructor who has only had his Camp School Training? And little or no practical experience? Than with someone who has run thousands of hours of ranges with the appropriate training? But lacks the NRA cert?

 

It's moot, until those military experienced folks can pony up the time and cash to hit NCS or the NRA schools.

 

And in my case is one more thing I can't personally justify right now.

[OldGreyEagle]

One thing to remember is that as a result of attending Camp School, the Camp School atendees take the NRA test for Shotgun, Rifle, and Muzzle loading so its not like the Camp School curriculum is something the BSA came up with, its the NRA curriculums run back to back to back with Archery thrown in as well.

 

All of the programs require live fire sequences so some expereince may be had, and in the class I took, the instructors set up situations to test the students reactions and how to handle situations. NO, no firearm was ever pointed at anyone.

 

All of the attendees in my class passed all the NRA tests and received a Camp School card as well

[Crew21_Adv]

BadenP,

 

Greetings!

 

Correct. I agree, "a BSA camp school shooting credential is NOT the same as an NRA certification, and as I said before outside a BSA facility it has no value or credibility."

 

Maybe I should not have spoken for all NCS SSD courses.

 

My own NCS SSD course was taught by regional NCS trainers/NRA trainers. It was a 40+ hour course, not a one day seminar. Those students that desired, paid the extra fee and received NRA Trainer credentials. NCS SSD does use the NRA Trainer curriculum, I assumed that all NCS SSD students across the BSA were offered the option to apply for the NRA Trainer credentials.

 

I agree.. The NCS cert won't be worth a dime outside of Scouting. But the NRA Trainer cert (and 10 dollar application fee) was earned during the course of a week long NCS SSD course.

 

OGE, I'll take a look tonight at my NCS and Camp Standard literature. As I recall National Camp Standards gave those allowances/waivers (with an SSD on campus). Maybe my memory might not be so good though. "I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken" might fit. I could be refering to old literature, or maybe reading something into standards that I want to see. I'll look again tonight.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

P.S. I have found a link to the 2008 Camp Property and Program Management. Not the Camp Standards Visition report though. It helps define a Range Officer and SSD.

 

From my reading, it states that an SSD must have the NCS cert, but a Marksmanship Range Officer must "hold current instructor certification from the National Rifle Association (NRA) in the specific firearm for which the officer is giving supervision or training"

 

http://srbsa.org/public/services/program/docs/2008/(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

[Crew21_Adv]

Fellow Scouters,

 

Greetings! Here with another P.S.

 

I just found this link to the Camp Standards for 2009. Obvious, BSA wants a NCS cert over an NRA cert, but NRA cert is acceptable to run the range. I posted only specific paragraphs below, so check the link to read the entire statement.

 

 

http://srbsa.org/public/services/program/camping/2009/standards/2009-ncs-standards-kit.pdf

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

" The camp shooting sports program may be operated by

military, law enforcement, 4-H, or NRA instructors, but the

camp will be conditionally accredited. In this instance,

each shooting sport range or area must have the current qualified

personnel and supervision to operate."

 

and

 

"NRA certification is available through the Shooting Sports

section of a National Camping School."