wecamp4fun Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Our Troop has enjoyed a shooting campout for a couple of years. The couple who are NRA certified instructors have more or less moved on. We would like to continue this tradition but have not yet taken NRA courses. In the G2SS the items in bold are rules. On the firearm page it clearly states that, in bold, "except those specifically planned for target shooting under the supervision of a currently certified BSA or National Rifle Association firearms instructor." I know what an NRA instructor is but what is a Certified BSA instructor and how do I go about getting that designation? The rest of the requiremtns for a NRA RSO are not in bold so they are recomnedations, not rules as I understand it. See http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William862 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 ok i may be wrong but i think in order to be bsa cert. for firearms,climbing instrutor, ect. you have to attent scouting university to take them programs. Same place you recieve training for summer camp director and other admin summer camp jobs. as i said i may be wrong but just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntrog8r Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I asked this question in two different Councils and was told by the Execs that NRA is the only BSA cert. Since I am NRA cert I've never pursued it any further. I'd love to find out the ground truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew21_Adv Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 wecamp4fun, Greetings! A Certified BSA instructor under firearms in the G2SS should be the same as Shooting Sport Director. You would have to attend National Camping School to achieve that designation. A Shooting Sports Director has taken the 40 hour Rifle, Shotgun and Archery Instructor basics from National Camping School. The instructor material is "educational licensed or intellectual property" purchase from the NRA and NAA. Plus some additional BSA SSD documentation and safety courses on top of the NRA/NAA material. The one day course sometimes offered at a Scouting University or Staff Development is usually a "Range Officer" certification. A Range Officer may train and operate the range (and raise the red flag to indicate an active or hot range), but a shooting sports director needs to be on campus during any rifle (to include air rifle), shotgun or archery events. Ask your local Summer Camp Director if you can review the Summer Camp publications. I believe there are waivers for Range Officer (certified NRA, Police or military firearm instructors), but not for Shooting Sports Directors. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunny2862 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Unfortunately, at least in our Council there are NO waivers for prior experience regardless of certification or tenure performing a paid range position. (Former Line Supervisor,Pit boss, Line Boss, Coach, RSO, and RO for various military ranges) RO's in our Council are allowed to operate ranges without supervision of a Shooting Sports Director - but they must be currently NRA certified Shooting Sports Instructors at a minimum. Except for Cub Scouts and Air Rifles - there is a Cub Scout RO designation that is also taught by a Council approved NRA Instructor. Be aware that any Range you operate without a properly qualified operator supervising it will most likely remove you from the Insurance window and possibly place you, personally, directly in the legal line of fire if a mishap were to occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Be aware that any Range you operate without a properly qualified operator supervising it will most likely remove you from the Insurance window and possibly place you, personally, directly in the legal line of fire if a mishap were to occur. Yah, these kinds of statements just make me feel so... Can't for da life of me figure out why so many amateurs want to go on about legalisms when there's no need. In the event you are supervising any event anywhere for anybody you will almost always be personally named in a negligence action ("directly in the legal line of fire"). Your level of trainin' is irrelevant. In fact, in some cases having more training can be a detriment. Whether or not a particular situation meets the terms of an exclusion clause in an insurance contract is the only thing which forfeits coverage (or da "insurance window"? ). The internal policies of da BSA are irrelevant. And then an awful lot depends on da facts of a particular case, eh? And da state. So this again falls into da Universal Rule #3 for Detecting a Scouting Urban Legend: If someone tells you that insurance won't cover or that you'll be personally liable, they probably are talkin' out of their hat. People who really understand this stuff don't talk like that. The reason we get training, the reason we set up safe outings has nuthin' to do with lawyers or insurers or boogeymen. We get trained, we act responsibly, we try to keep kids safe because we care about kids. That's reason enough, eh? No need to make stuff up. Crew_21's got this right, eh? Yeh get certified by takin' the requisite program at National Camp School. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Legalistics aside, I am under the impression that the only path to NCS is if your COuncil sends you and pays for it. Individual unit leaders just can't sign up and go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSScout Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 In our Council, the Program Director is the one to go to for info on Range Officer training or Shooting Sports Director training. The Camp School connection is correct, as far as that goes, and you do need the Council PD's OK to attend. I'm sure your Council would love to allow you to pay your own way to Camp School for the training, providing you promise to be available for range responsibilities around the Council, not just for YOUR unit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eghiglie Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Our council and the one north of us accepts the NRA credentials for shooting sports. This works out well, and the council offers NRA training once a year at a reasonable price. The big gotcha in all of this is the liability insurance I'm not covered by the BSA and the Charter Org insurance will sort of cover me for liability. NOTE: The council provides accident insurance. Prior to 11/2008 the cost of an umbrella plan was affordable to me and my family and we had a blast teaching the boys to shoot real bullets. As I can no longer afford the insurance I had to stop teaching the boys. The other gotcha lately is that ammo is very hard to get and has increased in price. I'll still renew the credentials though because I'm hoping that in 2012 things will change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Beavah, Maybe because Gunny is as expert at small arms (to include crew-served weapons) as you are at canoeing, trapping, and legaling... He has a point though: Ranges run by amateurs are not fun places to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew21_Adv Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 scoutldr, Greetings! Yeah.. It seems that NCS courses are usually conducted at the regional level. Classes are held in various councils, but not the full complement of the 24 courses. And NCS is not held at all the councils nationwide. The primary seats, would be going to Boy Scout Summer Camp and Cub Day Camp staff. (Of course, every Scoutmaster or parent wants their Scout to attend a fun and safe summer camp). Summer camp programs get inspected every summer, to confirm they are safe and have sanitary cooking or food issue. For NCS, after the primary seats are taken, I'd bet a Scout Executive could find out about available seats and individual cost. So, I'd bet you'd be able to obtain a seat, if you ask at the council. The various NCS courses of instruction are about 24 hours (3 days) to 40 hours (5 days). Most of the NCS courses have a 5 year expiration. http://srbsa.org/public/services/program/camping/2010/2010-ncs-schedule-all-regions.pdf The annually updated NCS literature and National Camp Standards visitation form will state absolutely what is acceptable or not acceptable during Summer Camp. And it would probably be best to model a troops rifle shooting, shotgun shooting and archery merit badge weekends similar to the National Camp Standards. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Way back when our Venture Crew started, we were green, so green we didnt even know it was a Venturing Crew (fooled yeah!) Whenever Crews Adults would get together we would always talk about how to make happen what the youth wanted to do. And shooting was always part of the deal. But we couldnt have a shooting event at a Council Camp unless someone was qualified, and we never seemed to have any one qualified, the Camp Rangemaster's always out of reach or off at collge or something. SO, 5 years ago I ended up talking to our Scout Executive and I went to Camp School and became a Shooting Sports Director, with NRA credentials in Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading, (I payed for it myself) and then picked up Range SAfety Officier at my SHooting Sports Recertification class this past April (Camp School is only good for 5 years) and the first week end of Octoberm the Northeast Region ran a Pistol Instructor Class (NRA of course) and I attended that as well. The Camp School system has no problem with non-camp staff and self-paid students, Councils, of course, being independent may have other policies. I now supervise shooting sports at many Venturing events in and out of the COuncil I serve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadenP Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Boy talk about taking something simple and making it complicated, an NRA certified instructor, as the GSS states, is totally acceptable and is a lot easier to obtain than wasting all your time and money going to camp school. All you will get from camp school is another unnecessary and expensive patch that is not even required in the first place. Go to the NRA courses and get certified there, it is a lot more convienent and a whole lot less expensive. Besides if you are going to a non BSA range the BSA certification means very little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 From what it costs in my area for a single NRA certificate, I got Rifle, Shotgun, and Muzzleloading along with Archery in a single week at the cost of about 1.5 certificates tuition, plus I spent a week at camp. I didn't see it as a waste of time or money. I had a blast and remember it fondly. Others may not have seen it that way, its why BAskin Robbins has more than one flavor One of the Councils I helped at required the Venturing Committee to have a Camp School qualified Shooting Sports Director on site or they couldnt use the Camps Range or Rifles, my certificate has allowed them to run shooting events for a few years now. The Council may be wrong, but who wants to wage war with a council over BSA policy? How does that generally work out? In the Guide to SAfe Scouting it says to do shooting, whether Rifle, Shotgun Muzzle loading or Pistol (Venuring only of course) you must have an NRA instructor and a Range Safey Officer. So, you need two certifcations, debates rage if one person can perform both duties(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadenP Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 OGE I am glad you had a great time playing at camp but the sad fact is that certification is only valid at BSA facilities, and thats why I said it was a waste of time and money. The NRA certifications are the only nationally recognized ones and is a much better investment. By the way OGE did you wear your red beret to the training and play Army Ranger,lol, jk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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