BSA Knife Policy

[desertrat77]

Eagle92, your post made my day, thanks!

[jrush]

TAHAWK, Scouts are already taught safe handling of fixed blade knives...they are the same principles behind safe handling of any knife. They also use fixed blade knives on a regular basis...they are part of every chuck box and most tackle boxes.

 

I agree, "banning" all fixed blade belt knives becasue the BSA "highly discourages" "large sheath knives" is probably overkill, but on the other hand, are councils and troops really denying some essential element of scouting or fieldcraft to the boys by telling them they can't beebop around camp sporting a 7" KABAR on their belt?

 

 

[TAHAWK]

"TAHAWK, Scouts are already taught safe handling of fixed blade knives...they are the same principles behind safe handling of any knife. They also use fixed blade knives on a regular basis...they are part of every chuck box and most tackle boxes.

 

I agree, "banning" all fixed blade belt knives becasue the BSA "highly discourages" "large sheath knives" is probably overkill, but on the other hand, are councils and troops really denying some essential element of scouting or fieldcraft to the boys by telling them they can't beebop around camp sporting a 7" KABAR on their belt?"

 

 

jrush, while "principles" can be a slippery word, a fixed-blade knife presents, in some senses, issues not presented by a folding knife. Namely, it cannot be folded closed to pass and needs to be carried in a stout sheath, rather than a pocket.

 

In what sense are "Scouts" in general taught about fixed-blade knives? The information has disappeared from the Handbook and Fieldbook. When the Handbook speaks of "a knife" it has "blades." It is a "pocketkinfe." Consistently, the information is not required for Tot'n'Chip. The official BSA books that advocate khukuris and bolos are inadequate on safety issues and read by few Scouts or Scouters.

 

Are there units that still teach use of the fixed-blade knife, a tool still sold by B.S.A.? Yes. But that is dependent on Leaders and Scouters in that unit, not B.S.A.

 

Once again, we ought to start from the primary statement of B.S.A. policy on the fixed-blade knife. B.S.A. does not "highly discourage" even "large sheath knives." In language that has not changed in a generation, it "does not encourage the use of large sheath knives" and does so solely on the grounds of weight and poor utility for "most camp chores."

 

I doubt that a MK II Combat Utility Knife is "essential" to Scouting -- unless, of course, when it is. You will know you need a medium-weight 7" cutting tool when you do -- probably very rarely. Many in my Troop carried MK II's or the lighter and shorter MK I's when I was a Scout because they were inexpensive and widely available. Those who had not demonstrated that they would carry and use those tools responsibly were not allowed to carry or use any cutting tool, "large" or otherwise. That situation was consistent with Scouting as an educational movement.

 

(Not that a MK II is the ideal woods tools. The sharpened "false edge" tears up batons something fierce. The square junction between tang and blade creates a stress-riser making the knife vulnerable to catastrophic damage. The cross guard gets in the way. It is too long for most ordinary woods tasks.)

 

[jrush]

TAHAWK, I'm not disagreeing with most of what you're saying. The point is, what the BSA actually *says* and what they actually *do* in regards to sheath knives are two different things.

 

Next, scouts are taught how to care for, sharpen and handle knives. It doesn't matter one whit if that knife is a 2" folder or a combat knife. Passing fixed blade knives? Same thing as for the cook knife in the chuck box. Set it down, let the recipient pick it up. The Boy Scouts, believe it or not, allows for a bit of common sense to be applied to tasks. We (as adults) may have a hard time tolerating that concept, but we can apply it if we choose to.

 

Even so, my point is, so what if troops ban sheath knives? Again, what is the essential part of scouting being denied? So what if the fieldbook mentions bolos and the catalog sells a fixed blade? The Troop isn't telling a scout what they can or cannot buy, simply what they can and cannot bring to a troop function...which is entirely the Troop's prerogative. The Fieldbook is a supplement, not a requirement; the "essentials" of scouting are all in the Handbook. If a scout or scouter feels like they're being treated like a baby, they are free to leave the Troop and find one that allows everyone to bring their favorite bowie to camp.

 

At the end of the day, the BSA doesn't encourage the use of fixed blade knives and allows Troops and Councils to handle the matter in the way they see fit...as a result, because they don't add anything relevant to the scouting experience, they are in large part banned. If a bowie was even remotely useful around camp, the Handbook would have a section on how the bowie was the most useful scoutcraft tool on the planet and Troops would encourage every Scout to have one.

 

So, if we're going to focus on BSA policy, what's wrong with the BSA saying large sheath knives are of poor utility for most camp chores and then Troops telling boys and adults to leave them at home? Again, what is the essential part of scouting being denied?(This message has been edited by jrush)

[desertrat77]

My first day hike as a boy scout after crossing over from Webelos:

 

In the jungle, Panama Canal Zone.

 

Every scout had his own machete.

 

No adults. The SPL (a Star scout if memory serves) was in charge.

 

We were gone all day. Deep in the jungle. The SPL taught us alot.

 

The kicker: every scout behaved himself. No horseplay with the machetes. No one go hurt. Learned a heck of alot about the jungle, but even more so about leadership.

 

Trust encourages scouts to be mature.

 

As for the topic at hand, I haven't used a machete in years. But I will always value the experience.

[TAHAWK]

"TAHAWK, I'm not disagreeing with most of what you're saying. The point is, what the BSA actually *says* and what they actually *do* in regards to sheath knives are two different things."

 

Brother Scouter, B.S.A. has "done" at least these things about "sheath knives": 1)decide to sell them; 2) decide to stop selling them after fifty years; and 3) currently advocate that "large" sheath knives be avoided AND used.

 

"Next, scouts are taught how to care for, sharpen and handle knives. It doesn't matter one whit if that knife is a 2" folder or a combat knife."

 

Respectfully, have you ever sharpened a 7" knife with a double guard and sharpened "false edge"? It is a considerably different task from sharpening a folding knife with a sub-3" single-edged blade. As for handling, also considerably different. Care of the fixed-blade is easier and materially different.

 

"Passing fixed blade knives? Same thing as for the cook knife in the chuck box. Set it down, let the recipient pick it up."

 

I very strongly agree. B.S.A., however, taught a method of passing a fixed-blade knife not contained in a sheath that reduced the risks that are avoided by the method we agree upon. Now BSA teaches nothing about any fixed blade knife - "sheath," "combat," "filleting," or "kitchen" -- including the ones that they sell and suggest for Scouting.

 

"The Boy Scouts, believe it or not, allows for a bit of common sense to be applied to tasks. We (as adults) may have a hard time tolerating that concept, but we can apply it if we choose to."

 

I have no problem with common sense being applied to tasks - or policies or practices. I simply see it as "common sense" for BSA to teach the safe use of what BSA sells and advocates.

 

"Even so, my point is, so what if troops ban sheath knives? Again, what is the essential part of scouting being denied?"

 

The outdoor program is just one of the eight Scouting methods, so banning the most generally useful of all woods tools will not deny any essential part of Scouting. It does seem to me that it is illogical and inconsistent with Scouting's philosophy of character development to distrust Scouts to the extent that some Scouters will not to teach about the most common woods tool. Especially when that teaching also helps Scouts know how to use the most essential cooking tool. (The most common place to see the use of large fixed-blade knives would be the Cooking Channel.)

 

(Is driving by Scouts essential to Scouting? Why the Merit Badge?)

 

"So what if the fieldbook mentions bolos and the catalog sells a fixed blade? The Troop isn't telling a scout what they can or cannot buy, simply what they can and cannot bring to a troop function...which is entirely the Troop's prerogative. The Fieldbook is a supplement, not a requirement; the "essentials" of scouting are all in the Handbook. If a scout or scouter feels like they're being treated like a baby, they are free to leave the Troop and find one that allows everyone to bring their favorite bowie to camp."

 

As I pointed out, the Fieldbook says nothing about knives (or axes, saws, fires, ropes). And the Troop has the prerogative to do many things. Those things will usually be within the range of the acceptable: good enough.

 

That the Handbook discusses all equipment "essential" to the program is certainly a point of view. The current Handbook is certainly superior to the 11th edition. It still seems woefully inadequate regarding the axe and saw. (It also is incorrect about the chemicals that it illustrates being enough to make water "safe to drink.") And if all things essential are in the Handbook, why all the other books?

 

Attempting to reducing the discussion to the merits of a "bowie" or "combat knife" vs. a pocket knife is one rhetorical tactic. However, I did not suggest a "bowie" or "combat knife." In fact I listed the deficiencies of the most common clipped-blade knife - the Mark II. It shares those deficiencies with any double-edged knife. Neither did I, as do other B.S.A. publications, suggest the khukuri or bolo. Some may find it strange, but there are hundreds of patterns of "sheath knives" that are neither "bowies" or "combat knives." BSA sold some of them for fifty years.

 

"At the end of the day, the BSA doesn't encourage the use of fixed blade knives and allows Troops and Councils to handle the matter in the way they see fit...as a result, because they don't add anything relevant to the scouting experience, they are in large part banned. If a bowie was even remotely useful around camp, the Handbook would have a section on how the bowie was the most useful scoutcraft tool on the planet and Troops would encourage every Scout to have one."

 

At the end of the day, the BSA sells fixed-blade knives and suggests their use. Most of the Councils that purport to ban them also sell them in their camp stores. The majority of Troops that purport to ban them use them routinely in cooking. The Scouts will use them routinely at home and in their lives. So, I respectfully submit, BSA should present training information both in the Handbook and the syllabus for IOLS. We are about developing behavior and character for Scouting and for life.

 

And if BSA elects not to extend its mandate as an educational entity to publishing materials about proper use of fixed-blade knives, I suggest that it should consider not selling them and not advocating use of very large fixed-blade knives in official publications.

[jrush]

TAHAWK, your last two paragrapghs illustrates the issue some people are having:

"At the end of the day, the BSA sells fixed-blade knives and suggests their use. Most of the Councils that purport to ban them also sell them in their camp stores. The majority of Troops that purport to ban them use them routinely in cooking. The Scouts will use them routinely at home and in their lives. So, I respectfully submit, BSA should present training information both in the Handbook and the syllabus for IOLS. We are about developing behavior and character for Scouting and for life.

 

And if BSA elects not to extend its mandate as an educational entity to publishing materials about proper use of fixed-blade knives, I suggest that it should consider not selling them and not advocating use of very large fixed-blade knives in official publications."

 

Some people read something in a BSA publication talking about bolos or kukris and see that the BSA is "suggesting" or "advocating" their use. SMs and CCs note that while the BSA acknowledges the existence and potential use of such tools, they aren't even *recommended* for any tasks in the Boy Scout Handbook...thus, there's no need for them in the Troop.

 

Next, the Troop that bans the 7" fighting knife and has no issue with the 7" cook knife or the 7" filet knife isn't some sort of hypocrasy. Given the difference in purposes, I'm not surprised they are treated differently. Further, while the 7" cook or filet knife may get routinely used by the Scout at home, it's a stretch to say the same of a bolo, kukri, fighting knife, etc. Note that chainsaws aren't in the totn-chit, either. Should we be training every scout to use a chainsaw because they might use one at some point in the future? After all, the BSA does mention chainsaws.

 

TAHAWK, you've turned the BSA's treatment of a 7" fighting knife into a judgement on the BSA's "syllabus" of the training and mentorship of young men. I submit that if it's not required for Eagle, it's the proverbial icing on the cake. Think about it...a young man can go from Scout to Eagle and never once lay a hand on a fixed blade knife of any sort. You don't even have to have one to cook. You can clean and sterilize a folder, and a folder can cut up everything going in the pot. The cook knife is a convenience, nothing more.

 

If you focus on the "cake" of Scouting, that 7" fighter just isn't part of the cake. It's not even part the icing. It's a little crumb in the bottom of the box that you may or may not even notice. It doesn't have anything to do with lack of trust or responsibility...it has to do with not being important.

[SeattlePioneer]

Like a lot of things, I see no reason why we need agree on what kind of knives should be a part of various Scouting programs.

 

Tahawk seems to have a particular interest and perhaps skills in using a wide array of knives, and special knowledge and interest is often a good foundation for building such things into a Scout program.

 

That's true with my own experience of finding no real need to carry more than a folding pocket knife with a 3" blade.

 

Tahawk might wind up being Scoutmaster in a troop where most people carries a sheath knife and might might be Scoutmaster of a troop that proudly carried folders.

 

Either one can be a good program in my view.

 

As I noted, I even gave Cub Scouts a chance to learn about a KABAR fighting knife and how to use it to split kindling. If I were a Scoutmaster I might consider a knife like that to be suitable to leave as a tool in the axe yard for splitting kindling.

 

If I had someone with Tahawk's skill an interest in such knives as an adult leader, I might well encourage him to set a standard different than my own preferences.

 

I think this is an example of how Troops acquire their varying values and personalities, which can be and often is a good thing.

 

 

 

[TAHAWK]

jrush, I think it is fair to say that you repeatedly set up the dichotomy of pocket knife vs. 7" fighting knife as if a unit, camp, or Council must opt for one or the other. Yet, there are other hundreds of other choices - long and short, thick and thin, heavy and light. The choices include folding knives much heavier than and with longer blades than my favorite fixed-blade sheath knife. How about a fixed-blade knife with a single 3" edge or the "filleting knife" specifically excepted form the discouragement of "large sheath knives" by the G2SS?

 

I submit that you also set up the strawman argument that I advocate the use of a 7" fighting knife by Scouts. Yet I nowhere advocated the routine use of the "7" fighting knife." Instead, I pointed out its shortcomings as a woods tool.

 

As to the use of khukuris and bolos expressly suggested, discussed, and illustrated in official BSA publications cited above, please have the courtesy of reading them before taking me to task for misunderstanding their message. I find it quite clear. BSA elected to put its name and symbol on the covers of books about wilderness survival written by former UK commandoes. What did they expect?

 

In contrast, Stroud, Mears, and their ilk suggest much different sheath knives for routine woods work, but even they match the tool to the task instead of limiting the work to the tool.

 

Eagle is a fine thing. I wear my knot with pride. Giving an Eagle Charge is my favorite Scouting activity, whatever my role has been in 41 years of Scouting. The requirements for Eagle, however, no more limit what is, or should be, taught in Scouting than do the contents of a single book - the Handbook. Otherwise, why all the other dozens of books and pamphlets?

 

I again suggest that we teach our youth about fixed-blade knives as they are an almost unavoidable part of life and Scouting.

 

I do not say there is a single correct answer on this topic. But I think there is a wrong answer: thinking there is a single correct answer and chaining all of our teaching on edged tools to that one supposed answer.

 

[jrush]

TAHAWK, I didn't mean to imply that you were personally advocating for the USN Fighting Knife Mark II...what I meant to imply was that you were getting wrapped up over the treatment of such knives by Troops guided by the encouragement provided by National policy (that infamous "do not encourage" bit).

 

I agree, there are hundreds of choices of cutting tools a scout could use for tasks requiring a cutting tool. I further don't think that you (or anyone else) "misunderstood" a book written by survival experts with the BSA logo stamped on the front. I said that different people take different meanings away from the supplementals; that while you and others find it hypocritical that troops ban the use of an item the BSA puts their logo on, most leaders don't see anything important.

 

My bottom line was that for better or worse, the overwhelming majority of SMs and CCs will use the Boy Scout Handbook and the Requirements book, verbatim. Further, barring physical or mental disability requiring alternate requirements, they will use the requirements given in the handbook and requirements book for Eagle, verbatim, no more, no less. So, while I respect and understand your position that fixed blade knives are an unavoidable part of scouting, I also understand that the Boy Scout Handbook disagrees. To earn Eagle a boy must "demonstrate proper care, sharpening, and use of the knife, saw, and ax, and describe when they should be used." It does not specifically mention what kind of knife. The tot-n-chit requirements say "pocket knife", but the rank requirement doesn't say "earn your tot-n-chit". It says something else, simply "knife". All of those other things out there with the fluer-de-lis stamped on them from the fieldbook to survival guides are supplemental resources...no more, no less. Good resources, but not requirements. Hence, my statement that focusing on the absence of fixed blade sheath knives in the troop is just spinning one's wheels. "Supplement" versus "requirement".

 

I've said before I think the unofficial "in practice" ban on fixed blade sheath knives is silly and ignorant. That being said, I don't think it takes anything away from the program or the individual scout, because they aren't required for any task that a scout is required to do. Yes, they *can* be used for certain tasks. It's even arguable that they *should* be. But the fact is, per the requirements for Eagle, they don't have to be. So, while I think it's silly that I can't wear my BM 145 at camp or allow a young man to use it to earn Second Class, I don't lose any sleep over it.

[TAHAWK]

Statement by the Boy Scouts of America regarding knives:

 

"A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility."

 

Guide to Safe Scouting, at p. 33, "Knives."

[Basementdweller]

how quaint.....a can opener.

 

 

I carry a tiny single blade swiss army knife, It is blue.....

 

I need nothing more to be comfortable in my trek.

[TAHAWK]

Not only a can opener, a bottle cap lifter. ^___^ Holy 1960, Bat Man.

 

Boy's Life on sheath knives - June, 2008

 

 

Q. Im going on a camping trip with my troop, but my hunting knife broke. I see a lot of different hunting knives advertised. How do I know which one to buy?

Knifeless Neil, Summerville, S.C.

 

A. The best type of knife for camping trips and most any other outdoor activity, for that matter is a short, fixed-blade knife with a beefy handle.

Folding pocketknives can fold up on your hand while cutting. Not fixed blades. And remember: When it comes to blades, bigger isnt always better. Avoid blades longer than four inches. A small, sharp blade can cut just as well as a long one, but its safer to handle and easier to maneuver in tight spots. With a good fixed blade youll be set for most anything the outdoors can throw at you whittling, cutting, notching, butchering, filleting, even spreading peanut butter.

Here are two of my favorite fixed-blade knives:

 

Buck Diamondback Guide ($27; http://www.buckknives.com/)

This knife has a 3 1/8-inch-long drop-point blade with a texturized rubber handle.

 

SOG Field Pup ($60; http://www.sogknives.com/)

A four-inch stainless steel straight-edge blade with an easy-to-grip handle and nylon sheath.

 

[Tampa Turtle]

Recently I had to "camp out" at my in-laws house as I was cleaning out after a death. As a diabetic I carefully brought a box of food--a lot of which was in cans. Stupidly I brought my trusty old Barlow knife instead of my scout knife and....no can opener! Really messed me up. You know it is really, really hard to open a can wit a screwdriver and hammer.

 

As for the bottle opener...I am no longer, for medical reasons, a beer drinker. But my son was given a bottle of (soft) cider with a bottle cap the other day. He had no idea what it was. He got his scout knife and popped it off...but I think that was the first bottle cap to come off in our household in 10 years.

[TAHAWK]

The U.S. military did a survey to determine the use made of the Mark I and Mark II Combat Utility knives and the 225Q knife. No. 1 use, and exceeding all others combined? Opening C-Rat cans.