New Committee Chair - with a issue

[scoutldr]

I would question how the boy got to this point...the question I posed earlier should be a question at EVERY BOR...T-Life. I have little respect for those SM who leave the heavy lifting for the EBOR to do. He needs to have an SM conference at which the BSA Declaration of Religious Principle is discussed, prior to scheduling the EBOR. By the way, as CC, you can call a BOR at any time for any youth, not just for rank advancement. In fact, it's encouraged.

[boomerscout]

I guess you'll have to ask him what he means by duty to God. Many who believe in God aren't part of any organized religious sect. He could really be an agnostic or deist, and is using "atheist" incorrectly. Does he believe there is anything greater than himself?

[Beavah]

Yah, lots of good advice here.

 

Who is your CO? Any sense what they feel on the matter? Remember, it's their unit and their mission, eh? Both you and the SM work for them. I think yeh want to get their sense of it.

 

I'm with Lisabob and others on this. I don't think most teens really understand what "atheist" means, and when they use da word they're really just expressin' their questioning and doubt rather than their conviction. Sometimes, I ask 'em what they mean by "God" when they say they don't believe in God. And after they fumble around a bit with that, I tell 'em it's OK because I don't believe in that either! Kids get da oddest notions about God, since it's rare these days that anybody is really teachin' 'em very much.

 

All that being said, I'd sure like to see these conversations happen at the lower ranks, eh? I think your SM and BOR members really let the lad and the unit down on that. They missed an opportunity to really explore and help a boy learn about himself and his world and just grow. By Eagle rank, I like to see boys who have come to some understanding, and can express how they view da Oath and Law with honesty and some degree of maturity and commitment. No reason a lad can't both acknowledge doubt and commitment, eh? Good preparation for marriage .

 

Da thing yeh have to ask yourself in this case might be whether the SM let the boy down on this for so long that bringin' it up at this point is not being fair. And then balance that against where the boy is really at, where the CO is at, and the kind of example you'll be setting for the other kids.

 

But I reckon you and da COR might need to address the SM on the issue.

 

Beavah

 

[eghiglie]

capella

 

Sorry to hear you are in such a predicament

 

Our council has made this very easy for all the units, we simply are not allowed to ask about God or Religion during a SMC or BoR and if accidentally hear a religious comment we shall not base any advancement decision on such comments. They are gracious enough to let us stop bickering based on religion though. If the local council has to step to allow a boy to advance over a religious issue the scout will win PERIOD.

 

Just the other day, I was talking to a boy, Star Scout, who is very close to Life, he had no idea where to do an Eagle project. I suggested his Church, but not until the day he makes Life Scout. His answer was 'I find it hard to believe in God, because a good God would not invent confusing services where all you do is sit, stand or kneel. So I stopped going to church. My parents don't either'

 

I then suggested he approach his school........

 

I wish us all the best of luck with this issue

[HICO_Eagle]

Dean, I'm going to disagree with you a little here. I have always felt that the reason BSA requires multiple signatures is PRECISELY as a check and balance so that one or two individuals couldn't ramrod an undeserving Scout through. The BOR provides a check and balance on the SM for all rank advancement (or should). In the case of the Eagle candidate, every signature required is a potential point to call out something wrong with the application.

 

Having said that, I stand my my original response -- you should look at the total Scout because none of us is perfect and his "atheism" may not be all that that phrase implies. I'd probably sign it if he displays reverence despite claiming to be atheist but I'd invoke my conscience if I felt he really fell short of the practicing the Scout Oath and Law in daily life.

 

I've seen a handful of undeserving Scouts be given Eagles (and yes, I choose those words intentionally) because no one wanted to make waves or be the "bad guy" who stepped forward to say the Emperor had no clothes. It happens but I wouldn't want to be a party to it.

[John-in-KC]

An aside...

 

Dean, til mid-November I am on a full reverse cycle, either 5PM-5AM or a b shift, 3PM to midnight. It's the nature of my current employment in defense contracting.

 

MU-NU: A mature team deals with one mistake, and does not let it become a cascade. That's what happened Thurs night. That said, right after the 12-0 FG, EagleSon was on ESPN for all to view

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Returning to the issue at hand,

 

This is not an easy one. Like so many, including Lisa, it should not be an inquisition. Like Beavah, there's a lot of adult-adult conversations which need to happen before an Eagle app gets presented. One thought I'm having is maybe this particular young man needs some "away from the Troop" mentoring, under 2 deep, such as breakfasts where adults and kid can talk without confrontation, at least for a while. I think there's a good chance the youth is just without any footings in faith, and "atheism" is his label. If that's true, it's time to give him some trails to explore.

 

Now, if he understands the meaning and declares himself an atheist, with a faith underpinning that concludes there is no god, then the road gets very complicated for his Scouting.

 

Keep talking to us, please...

[Lisabob]

eghiglie writes about a boy he recently talked to: "I find it hard to believe in God, because a good God would not invent confusing services where all you do is sit, stand or kneel. So I stopped going to church. My parents don't either"

 

See and this is what I think a lot of kids view as not believing in a higher power/being an atheist. In fact, it would probably be more fair to argue that this boy does not have faith in the nature of organized religion - or at least, in that particular version of organized religion. Then, having rejected the only outward expression of religion that they have ever experienced - though not internalized - they (prematurely and perhaps, incorrectly) conclude that the entire idea of some kind of deity must also be rejected. Maybe I'm all wrong on this but I see that as a distinction that relatively few teens are ready to make.

[Twocubdad]

You're probably right, Lisa, but what I find remarkable in his post is that he isn't allowed to ask? WOW!

[BrentAllen]

And the Eagle award falls another notch...

 

How does one reconcile "duty to God" and "A Scout is Reverent" with "'I find it hard to believe in God, because a good God would not invent confusing services where all you do is sit, stand or kneel. So I stopped going to church. My parents don't either'?" How does that Scout stand there at meetings and give the Scout Oath and Law when this is how he truly feels?

 

The more I look around and see how the Eagle is "earned" the more disappointed I get. Parts of the program that are "inconvenient" are ignored so the Scout can earn this prestigious award, but then, how prestigious is it, in the end? Not very.

[Lisabob]

Actually I think this scout's thought process is pretty interesting. The scout clearly doesn't identify with the ritualized practices of his (former) church. He apparently finds those practices to be devoid of meaning. He has certainly identified the lack of deep spiritual content. So now, he's questioning what the nature of his religious beliefs are. If all he has been taught so far is that you sit and then stand and then kneel, if that's all he's getting from attending services, then it is not hard to see why he is questioning the value in that. Having grown up in a religious tradition where a lot of that occurs, and having gotten into some trouble for questioning (why do we do this?) things a little too often, I have some sympathy for his perspective. Empty rituals are boring and alienating. What kind of higher power could be seriously believed to require such nonsense.

 

One hopes that he will be able to develop a different understanding of religion, separate from the mechanistic practices that some (many?) churches employ. The fact that he's looking for deeper meaning is something to be supported, even though it is evident that he hasn't found it yet.

 

 

[boomerscout]

Lisabob: You could tell him that "so far is that you sit and then stand and then kneel" is part of the church's fitness plan to fight obesity, and that eating fish on friday is to ensure he gets his omega-3 oils. Tell him that he has to go deeper before he can understand the wisdom of the ancients

 

[BrentAllen]

"What kind of higher power could be seriously believed to require such nonsense."

 

Ever read the Old Testament?

 

Please show me where he is looking for deeper meaning. I see he has turned his back on religion and God. He is projecting God in his image, instead of seeking to understand God. This is what you get when religion is taken out of the program, and from what we've read here in the past, there are plenty of Troops that have done just that. I'll repeat:

 

"There is no religious SIDE to the Movement. The WHOLE of it is based on religion, that is, on the realization and service of God." Baden-Powell

 

"No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have religion." Baden-Powell

[nolesrule]

nm(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[boomerscout]

Lots of people deeply believe in God, try to follow the Ten Commandments, but want nothing to do with any of the man-made religions that claim God. Would such a person still be religious enough for Scouting?

[Lisabob]

From what was posted, we can't tell here if the boy has "gone deeper" or not. If the business about sitting, standing and kneeling was just a flip answer then certainly, somebody ought to have a quiet conversation with the boy and ask him to give it more thought than he has. On the other hand, he may have given it quite a lot of thought. Maybe his answer, itself, was a bit flippant, but the sentiment beneath it could be honest.

 

Teens are particularly bad at accepting empty ritual as a substitute for deep meaning. They want to know why. Telling them to curb their impertinence isn't likely going to go over well. That's the context in which I read this kid's answers. (though I may be reading too much into this boy's intent - impossible to tell from a distance, and second/third hand reports. But I know kids like him, who ask similarly tough questions and want real answers.) Kicking him out or stopping his advancement because he dislikes the seemingly meaningless and man-made trappings of a particular form of organized religion does a dis-service to the boy, to the whole notion of religion, and (in my view) to scouting.