The Ugly Side of Scouting - Discipline

[Eagle92]

In the case i mentioned, again I was not there, But talkig to the scout and his mother this is what happened. He caused problems and was counseled at several of the pre-jambo trips. For whatever reason he made soem remarks abotu the country, took the troop's US flag and set it afire near some tents, nearly catching them on fire. Becasue of the damage to troop property ( flags) and nearly setting tents on fire (safety issue) he was sent home.

[ntrog8r]

As a former CM?SM, there are a couple of incidents that come to mind...

 

First goes back to CS days. We had a 5th grade Webelo who was a trouble-maker. All kinds of trouble, most way too advanced a young boy. Obvious problems at home, etc. Scouting was a safe place for him, where he could be accepted as part of a group. I didn't realize how fragile that acceptance was, or how fragile his control was until after the incident. We were having a Pack Committee meeting after the Den meetings, Cubs all released back to parents, MCs kids outside on the grounds with two parents to supervise. Unfortunately this boy's dad decided NOT to take him all the way home and instead kicked him out of the car about two blocks from our meeting place. Not knowing where else to go he came back to us. We came up to wher ethe other Cubs were playing, he started yelling at them, grabbed one, threw him to the ground, and started punching him in the face. He had to be physically DRAGGED off the other boy. When the police arrived and the other boy was taken by ambulance to the ER, his Dad finally showed up and started screaming that we weren't doing our jobs and tryed to attack me. Turns out he was beating this poor boy at home - big shock, I know. The Committee voted to kick this boy and his parents out of the Pack. I finally persuaded them to allow this boy back into the program, with new controls in place, and he finished his time with us in the care of his grandmother. He transferred to a Troop and made it to Life. His time was not always easy but he made it. The boy he attacked was fine, scared to death of him, for obvious reasons. But we spoke with him and his parents about the controls we implemented and they all agreed to stay with us and give us a chance to reach this boy in need and keep the others safe.

 

The second incident involves boy in our troop whose teachers sad was "unreachable", his football coach would not let him on the field because he was "uncontrollable". Our first outing (his Dad present) he decided to take a stick out of the fire and run through the grass with it like an Olympic torch. Once I caught him and brought him back into the camp site, he proceeded to cuss me out. I had his Dad take him to their SUV and sit him in the front seat. Dad sat in the back and I sat in the drivers seat. We had a talk about respect and being a man. It was explained that what he had done that would never be allowed again, why it would never be allowed again, and the various actions that would result if they did. He was sent home for two months. For those two months, the SPL, his PL, and I went to their home after every meeting and sat with his Mom and Dad and talked about what the Troop was doing. Notice we did not include him. He was never asked to come out or invited to join in. At the end of his "probation", we all went back to their home and told him we really missed his energy in the Troop. We asked if he would consider coming back to the Troop. He "reluctantly" agreed. He had extra requirements to participate with us, which I know some will quickly explain I, as the SM, had no right to do. He had to show me his grades every week and maintain a C average. He had to have his teaachers permission to attend the meetings. His report card and behavior, in and out of the Troop were discussions at every SM conference. He was given specific jobs to do with firm follow-up from the PL and SPL. His Dad had to attend all functions with him the requirement for his Dad was to stay uninvolved but present). For three years this young man grew in the Troop and earned Star. He never held a position as PL or SPL but always did well at his PORs. At 16, after two years of city league football, he was back on the school team and excelled. His coach told his Dad what great potential he had, if only he practiced more. His Dad pulled him out of the Troop that week and never responded to us again.

 

None of this is against removing Scouts from the program, I'm sure there are boys and families out there that can't be reached by us volunteers trying to make it all work. This is simply the two experiences I've had where boys ALMOST removed from the program, and both for excellent reasons! I'm glad Scouting was able to reach them, at least for awhile, and make difference for them.

[Eagledad]

>>We really tried to work with him but his mental health issues were beyond what we could handle. I am upset for him but you have to think about the safety of the rest of the troop.

[Eamonn]

Have to say that I really don't think discipline is the ugly side of Scouting.

One of the things Scouts learn from being Scouts is that there is a time and a place for what is and what isn't acceptable.

While playing a wide game at camp, yelling, shouting and running around is not only fine and dandy, it in fact expected! None of this sort of behavior would be acceptable on a shooting range.

While maybe it's a bit of a stretch?

You could say that learning how to make ethical choices is also about knowing how to exercise self-discipline.

 

Most Leaders who have been around a unit for a while, know the youth that they are dealing with.

It is very rare when a Lad does or doesn't do something that is unexpected.

As we all (Adults and youth) deal with whatever the task at hand might be?? There are times when a "Correction" might be in order.

In the Utopian Troop (Never met one of these!) The P/L or S/P/L would have all the tools needed in his tool box. But most times this "Correction" can be given by an adult with "The Look". Sometimes a simple "Hey Guys!" Does the trick.

Patrols can impose discipline on themselves. They write their own time-table of things that they want to do and when they fall behind some of the things they wanted to get done, just don't get done. (Take 3 hours to clean up after lunch and the afternoon activities go out the window.)

Sadly there are times when a youth member will do something that crosses the line.

When this happens, when possible the Scout should be removed from the group and returned to his parents.

The matter should then be handed over to the Troop Management Committee.

I disagree with allowing the PLC dealing with this. No one ever said that the PLC should act as any kind of a jury.

The unit leaders are tasked with providing the program, not handing out judgments.

In over 30 years as a Scouter I have only ever had one Lad removed from the program and that was due to him acting inappropriately with another male Scout. The decision to remove him came from the Committee.

Eamonn.

[Beavah]

Yah, CrewMomma, I think yeh did what you could, eh?

 

I reckon there are two or three different good reasons for removin' a lad from a unit.

 

1) He's more than the unit leadership can handle. Not all of us are good at handlin' all kinds of kids, eh? I reckon every volunteer has to be honest about that with themselves and with parents. That's not "giving up on a kid", that's recognizing our own limits. Findin' another troop or youth program that has the ability to serve the kid is a good thing.

 

2) His effect on other boys / troop culture is too harmful, and it's a better lesson for all of the boys if he's removed. That can be from one incident (like drug use or vandalism) or a long series of incidents.

 

In my experience, da two things go together, eh? If a boy is more than the unit leaders have experience or time or resources to handle, then it's usually also havin' a negative effect on other boys and on da troop.

 

Beavah

 

[Buffalo Skipper]

We removed a scout recently from our troop. It was the hardest thing I have done in scouting. The scout was a serious discipline problem. He had been counseled by me and other adults on virtually every campout. He intimidated (bullied) other scouts, blatently disobeyed, damaged property, stold, rigged elections, and was a significant disruptive influence in the troop (and this was just the past few months). The straw which broke the camel's back were facebook and myspace pages covered with material which was vulger, obscene, racist and just plain inappropriate for anyone, much less a 13 year old. It also included photos of scouts in suggestive poses with vulger names. It was the COR and CC who decided that after repeated discipline, the implied link from the material to the troop to the church (charter), enough was enough.

 

I contacted the SE who removed the scout from the charter and sent a refund check for the balance of membership fees for the year. Our troop has made great progress since he left, and admitedly, the scouts have been markedly better behaved and focused (they were only told that he is no longer with the troop, the details have never been discussed openly--even to the committee).

 

In spite of the imporved demeanor in the troop, I regret that I could not better reach this young man. He had continued to be oblivious to any concept of consequence, and incidents repeated themselves day after day; I can only hope he learned something positive from this.

[Eagle92]

If you read the book Follow Me Boys which the movie is loosely based upon, Lem Siddons comments on the scouts he lost aong the way. Sad yes, but it will happen.

[Stosh]

I guess in all the years I have been involved with youth work I've never had any major disciple problems. I usually can foresee much of the problems and focus on "heading them off at the pass". When that doesn't work they get the, "It's too bad you have decided not to continue in Scouting" SM conference and that ends the problem.

 

One has to focus on the kids that wish to make something of themselves and not try to save every bad apple that comes down the pike. That may sound harsh, but one cannot save someone who doesn't want to be saved. The quicker one recognizes this, the happier and healthier the organization will be.

 

Stosh

[Get Outdoors]

What are your opinions if:

 

I kid brought a bottle of vodka on a camping trip?

 

How about an older scout brings some pot on an outing and shares with a two of his buddies?

 

Assume all these kids are "good" kids (all kids are good to some extent in my book)good scouts that I've never had any real problems with.

 

What would you do?

[Twocubdad]

Third rail.

[Stosh]

SM conference time.

 

One-on-one with the boy with a long discussion on leadership choices and what scouting example he is setting for the younger boys.

 

If he agrees it is a breach of scouting norms, what is his punishment to be?, Who should be notified?, etc. The boy is involved in this process and he takes ownership and responsibility for his involvement in the situation. If parents are to be notified, who's responsible for telling them, the boy? SM? Police? The boy has made choices to get himself into trouble, he needs the opportunity to make choices on getting out as well.

 

If he doesn't care, then the discussion on his future in scouting is covered, especially in light of his not caring about the program in the first place and what the next step is in terminating his career in scouting and how that is to be worked out with parents, etc. Again, who's responsible for what in the process.

 

Too often adults come down with both feet on the boy without giving them a chance to express their values, concerns, etc. This is especially important in the boys that are acting up, bullying, and other disruptive behavior.

 

Alcohol/pot at the event? We review the drug and alcohol abuse requirements and why they haven't had an impact on the boy. Again, an opportunity for the boy to accept responsibility is taken into account and used to resolve the problem.

 

Too often it is a temptation to simply take the authoritarian position of a parent/teacher/pastor/police and jump all over their case. However, I have had quite a few boys turn themselves around if given an opportunity to do so. Listening works wonders and basically disarms the boy from any and all excuses. When they get into trouble they expect an adult to yell at them, but when they don't, they don't know what to do. At that point it's time to start focusing their attention on resolution to the problem and THEY are going to do to fix things. I then support the boy in the appropriate course of action to resolve the problem. You have to tell your parents what you did? Would you prefer I tell them? Do you want me present when you tell them? Do you want to be there when I tell them? If the boy has to make the choice, it's more effective than blowing it off as I'm in trouble and some adult's going to be yelling.

 

Stosh

[Twocubdad]

Discuss the example he is setting for the younger boys? He's distributing drugs and alcohol to them! Providing the stuff to the others is the coup de grace. Getting caught with an unopened bottle or a joint will get you all the conferences and parent's meeting in addition to a lengthy suspension. But providing drugs/alcohol to the other kids is inexcusable.

 

We're not running a rehab unit or a probation office. His parents get to have all those heart-to-heart conversations about him taking ownership of his choices and the consequences he feels are appropriate. Or not. But it is no longer my concern because the young man is no longer in our troop. No yelling, no confrontation, no jumping on his case. Simply pack your things and wait for your parents to pick you up. The procedure in our troop is that I would suspend him for a month pending the committee and COR acting on my recommendations to revoke his membership.

 

At this point my concern is not for this kid but the other Scouts in the unit, some of whom are still in elementary school, for goodness sakes. How do I explain allowing this kid to remain in the troop to their parents or to the Deacons of our chartered organization.

[Stosh]

I guess it's just a difference in leadership and discipline styles. The results will probably be the same, but how one reaches the end point varies. Yes, some scouts will decide not to return in order to insure the safety of the younger scouts, some may stay and become good scouts, but when all is said and done, I always ask myself if I have done my best for everyone concerned or did I just pass the problem off to someone else to deal with. To me it's a conscious decision I make to be responsible for all the scouts, not just those who behave.

 

I have never in 40 years had to deal with the example of drugs/alcohol or even tobacco given. I am constantly watching and putting my expectations out there long before the problem develops. I guess the worst thing recently I had to address was 2 older boys bringing soda to an outing. I knew they were off in their tent drinking it and they were stupid enough to toss their cans in the patrol garbage. When I posed the question to them about setting a good example, they stood mute. Since then one has quit and the other will be quitting as soon as he gets his Eagle rank. In the mean time they have not brought soda to an outing. The rule was reinforced, the disciple dealt out and two scouts have or are anticipating quitting. I dealt with the problem, but at what price? These two had no interest in BSA leadership development and have chosen alternative paths for their lives.

 

So, who wins in this situation? An infraction occurred, no big deal, the boys learned a lesson in leadership, and they chose to leave because leadership wasn't in their future.

 

Stosh

[Twocubdad]

And in that situation, I would have handled it exactly the same way.

 

Our only point of disagreement seems to be that I believe (as does the troop committee and COR) there are behaviors which are incompatible with remaining in the program -- gross and willful safety violations, physical abuse of another Scout, and providing drugs or alcohol to other Scouts are among them.

[Stosh]

I never said the outcome would be any different, just the style of discipline one takes to get there. The discussion is on discipline, not outcomes. It's kinda like the difference between calling the cops and having the kid hauled off and going with the kid to turn himself in for illegal possession of pot. Ends up in the same place, but how it's handled is quite different.

 

Stosh