Hope this never makes it across the pond

[gcnphkr]

An article in the Telegraph about how scouts will no longer be allowed to carry pen-knives.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6145785/Scouts-to-no-longer-bring-penknives-on-camping-trips.html

[SMT224]

Clearly this one came out of the Ministry of Silly Ideas!

 

For me, the operative language is: "...except in "specific" situations."

 

Well, I always end up in a specific situation where I need my knife, hence I always carry it. No worries there.

 

[SequoiaWDL]

I suggest they take the word "Scouts" out of their title, because they no longer are. I promise to be on the front lines of a revolt should anyone try that here.

[Eagle92]

If they want to equate knives as "weapons," Fine it's a Second Amendment issue then and they can pry my knives from my cold dead hands.

 

makes me want ot go out, but the $500+ anniversary knife, and wear it on my uniform to camp!

 

What idiot in the UK came up with this.

[AlFansome]

 

Calm down folks...not true.

 

 

Comments from UKs Chief Commissioner:

https://members.scouts.org.uk/ccblog/6/the-truth-about-scouts-and-knives

 

Plus, current knife policy in the UK:

https://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/1515

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Sorry for the over reaction, mea culpa. It's just after living in the UK for 3 months, I know a little about some fo the stupid laws over there.

[Pack212Scouter]

Just because they say that it isn't true...doesn't make it not true. Read their guidelines and analyze them. That article is more true than they want you to believe.

 

First off, examine the attitude towards knives. Knives are refered to as weapons as many times as they are refered to as tools.

 

Secondly, repeatedly it is stated that Scouts should indeed not carry knives unless they are about to use them:

 

"When undertaking training at the Scout HQ, knives should be taken to and from Scouts by an adult."

 

"When taking a knife to camp, they should be securely stowed in the middle of the rucksack or bag." - Where they are inaccessable.

 

"you would only really carry the knife when there is an expectation to use the tool" - I expect to use my knife at any time. In fact I have, from an emergency of cutting someones hand out of a conveyer, to cutting rope to secure a loose part on a vehicle. The guidelines however obviously consider that potential uses for a knife are all planned.

 

"knives when not being used should be stowed away until such time as they are needed." - Which the article says that you only need them for "the cutting of string, cooking or whittling"

 

"A campsite, which may technically be private property as it is owned by a District or County, is considered as public property because of its use. Knives should not be carried unless they are going to be used, and should be put away when not in use." - So, you don't even carry your knife around camp unless you know you are about to use it.

 

Sounds like ths article was more on target than they want to admit.(This message has been edited by pack212scouter)

[Narraticong]

The right tool for the job.

 

Our young SPL transferred in from another troop about a year and a half ago. Apparently they took the BSA line on sheath knives to heart. None allowed.

 

He and I got into a discussion this summer about knives, axes, and saws. Our SPL is the best Totin' Chip instructor I have seen. When I told him I have no problem with sheath knives, his jaw dropped.

 

It's a pretty simple thought process. If an axe is the correct tool, use it. If a saw is the correct tool, use it. If a pocket knife is the right tool, use it. If a sheath knife is the right tool, use it. If a spatula is the right tool, use it...

 

But if you are going to use a tool, any tool, you beter know how to use it and when it is the appropriate tool. You better know that tools and toys are very different and are not to be confused.

 

Teach them correctly and then as adults, set the right example.

 

Ken

[Stosh]

I wear the old belt axe/sheath knife combo all the time. My hand axe is overly sharpened to knife keenness and they both say BSA on them. I use them all the time on campouts and activities. I can create a pile of tinder/kindling faster than anyone in the troop. Unfortunately for the boys, until they get BSA hand axes and sheath knives AND are trained in their usage, the are not allowed.

 

As far as worrying about what's happening "across the pond", as a person of Norwegian descent, yes, I carry a Viking battle axe and short sword at most scout campouts. How does knowing that torque your shorts?

 

Stosh

 

[Chug]

Right, let's actually read The Scout Associations guidelines;

 

Published on: 01/12/2008

 

Information on the use of knives in Scouting

 

 

Knives should be considered as a tool and treated as such. Those who are going to use them should get training for their use, as you would for a saw or an axe. Knives are an offensive weapon so great care should be taken when dealing with them. When undertaking training at the Scout HQ, knives should be taken to and from Scouts by an adult. When taking a knife to camp, they should be securely stowed in the middle of the rucksack or bag.

 

If you consider a knife as a tool, then you should use the appropriate tool for the job. The vast majority of Scout use will only require the use of a pen or clasp knife, the cutting of string, cooking or whittling. Where you have a larger task, such as splitting wood, a larger knife such as a sheath knife may be appropriate. If you relate this to axes, you would not use a hand axe to fell a tree, nor a felling axe to split wood.

 

There is an issue with regard to clasp knives and lock knives. A lock knife is one where the blade stays open unless some mechanism is used to close the blade. In the eyes of the Law, this is more of an offensive weapon than a standard clasp knife because of this multiple action. From a safety point of view, a lock knife can not fold onto the users fingers and may be better.

 

The carriage of knives is also to be considered. If a knife is considered as a tool, you would only really carry the knife when there is an expectation to use the tool, after all, you wouldn't carry an axe around a campsite on the off chance of coming across some wood to chop. Therefore, knives when not being used should be stowed away until such time as they are needed. Legally, you are not allowed to carry a knife in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse. A campsite, which may technically be private property as it is owned by a District or County, is considered as public property because of its use. Knives should not be carried unless they are going to be used, and should be put away when not in use.

 

Finally, horse play with knives must not be tolerated.

 

https://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/1515

 

The word weapon is used in connection with knives twice, whereas the word tool is used five times.

 

The actual ruling on Scouts and knives hasn't changed for more than 40 years.(This message has been edited by Chug)

[kenk]

PLEASE don't take these rights for granted!!

 

Not to get political on anyone, but did you know that the U.S. Congress was recently considering a law that would outlaw ownership of knives that could be opened one-handed??? Yup.

 

Those who see knife ownership as important have formed a civil rights protection organization (something like the NRA). Please consider joining. http://www.kniferights.org

[Pack212Scouter]

Ok....I hate getting into these kind of arguments, however when looking at the guideline you don't count the number of times a word is used, but phrase and content. Knives are referenced as a tool three times. The other two are in reference to other tools and as a generic rerefernce in the same sentence. Reguardless, this guideline was is quite obviouse in thar it considers knives to be as much a potential weapon, as a tool. Additionally, the Scouting release itself states that the guidelines in the UK have been updated three or four times over the years. I can't remember the exact number that they said.

[TAHAWK]

Narraticong, IMO you are on the right side in the debate. Your comments are thoughtful. But please reconsider saying things like, "Our young SPL transferred in from another troop about a year and a half ago. Apparently they took the BSA line on sheath knives to heart. None allowed."

 

The "BSA line" contains no ban or disapproval of all "sheath knives." In some BSA publications they "do not encourage" "large sheath knives" - whatever "large" means. By negative implication, "Not Large" sheath knives are free from taint. Moreover, two current officical BSA publications, The Complete Wilderness Training Guide" and "The Survival Handbook, Essential Skills for Outdoors Adventure," (both available at or through your Scout Shop) illustrate and discuss use of short swords - the UK Ghurka-issue Mk V khukuri (less correctly, "kukri") Think of about 18" and 20 oz. of steel. The second book also discusses and illustrates bolos and machetes - "large" cutting tools by any standard.

 

There is a struggle going on in Scouting between those who do not feel Scouts should be taught to use and allowed to use a common houshold tool, the fixed-blade knife, even as BSA sells fixed-blade knives. Apparently, the "thinking" is that things cause behavior, and Scouts and Venturers cannot be trusted. Or maybe its pure PC by "suits."

 

Ever notice how sharp an arrowhead is or think of all the bad things one might do with an axe, .22, or rope? Good Lord! Hammers!

 

Please, let's not help the banners. Instead, politly challenge bans in your Councils. We got relief from a ban at the camp we attended this Summer.

 

Now, let's get fixed-blade knife use back in Tot'N'Chip! (Or we can just pretend there are no fixed-blades out there in the world our youth live in - such as the Official Chef's Kit.)

 

 

[Lisabob]

What I think I'm hearing is that people who don't live there are being told by people who *do* live there, that this is a non-issue over there. And then the people who don't live there suggesting that the people who *do* live there, might be wrong. Huh.

 

Regarding the Congress & proposed knife bans. You know that isn't ever going to pass, right? Just because some goofball proposes something doesn't mean anything. Heck, if I get elected to Congress someday, I intend to introduce a bill mandating that large slices of homemade peach pie be served with every meal. Mmmm... Pie....

 

 

 

 

[Smithgall]

i have always wondered where the sheath knife got such a bad rap. I really dont know the safety difference between a 3 inch lock blade and a 3 inch fixed blade. When being used its just as safe or dangerous as the user handling it. The only thing i can see is that its some holdover from boys trying to bring rambo knives so the sheath knife got labeled as bad and not the length as it should have been. although you could argue that a long fixed blade is still not dangerous in and of itself

 

as for the banning of the any knives dont be suprised if that does come up some day. We live in a society that has tried to remove all risk. Unfortunately people get injured and die doing things everyday. As tragic as these things are, sometimes they are simply accidents. Trying to regulate accidents away is a fools mission. Boyscouts represents so many "dangers". we camp outside in the heat or the cold, we eat food that kids prepare, we walk in the woods with animals, we handle knives, axes, fire, bb guns, rifles, shotguns, motor boats, Oh my gosh we must be nuts. to think my son does all that and yet he couldnt bring a compass to school (the kind with a pencil on one end and a pint on the other for drawing circles) I mean really how many kids get killed by a compass.

 

Its the mamby pambying of America.