Troops spying on one another

[prof]

Back when I was a scout, I made a visit to other troops.

I was in a troop that was young. There wasn't a lot of carry over between the scouts before my group and the scouts in my age group. Thus, I didn't have a good example of an SPL to follow. No troop guide or JASM. The scoutmaster was new as well.

The Assistant District Commisioner arranged for me (SPL) and the SM to visit one of the more active troops in the district. The troop meetings were very well organized. We brought back a lot of ideas! We changed (for the better) because of the visit!

 

[CalicoPenn]

The lad is showing initiative - this is good. The lad is showing judgement by talking to the SM before he initiates the visit - another good thing.

 

As for what the limits of the Scribe's job is:

 

There's a saying I've heard of used in the business world: "Dress for the position you aspire to, not the position you're in". I think the corallary is "Think and act in a manner consistent with the position you aspire to, not just the position you're in". I don't know what other people think, but it seems to me this lad has every intention of being SPL someday and wants to make sure he does well at it.

[CalicoPenn]

One more thought - as you're downloading info on the other unit, I'd make it a point to point out how your unit had adults AND Scouts at this function, and the other unit only had Adults - and ask what that says about the differences in the Troops.

 

Good for you for having the wisdom to have Scouts at this function!

[Crossramwedge]

Well I percieve that there is a consensus here. Let the boy go. No Problem. Let him come back And report. No problem. Might learn something. I agree.

 

The problem comes in because he and the SM left the SPL out of the decision makeing process. If the troop is a boy led troop then matters such as these I believe should be brought up to the SPL. He should not be left out of the loop. IMHO the SPL's authority was usurped in this action.

 

This plan was announced at a troop meeting and the SPL had no prior knowledge of the fact. When the young man was approached by the SPL as to when was this plan hatched the SPL was told by this scout that he had discussed it with the SM and was given permission to do this and if the SPL objected that there was nothing that he could do about it since the SM gave him permission to do it. The SPL approached the SM and was told that at the prior event that the two troops were watching over, a scout leader from that troop was bragging about this and that. (He was from the troop who had no boys show up to help run the event. By the way the job of the Scouts was to promote and share Scouting with the Public.) The SM thought that it was a good idea to visit them and see if all of this bragging was fact. That being said, before permission was given by the SM for trhis, a call should have been made to the SPL so he would be knowledgeable of the facts before they sprang it, by announceing it to the whole troop at a regular meeting. Made the SPL look like an idiot.

 

The young man in question also makes decisions on his own without consulting other leaders, let alone the SPL. He made a decision that we where not going to work on a special project at regular meetings because he thought that we did not have the time to do so and then with out consulting anyone sent out e-mails to the whole troop stateing like it was a decision made by the SM or SPL. He has no authority to make a decision like that. I could give other instances, but you get the drift.

 

I must not understand how a boy led troop operates. Somebody please fill me in. I thought that the SPL with guidance from the SM was the leader of the troop. Am I missing something? Am I wrong in my thinking? It was my understanding that the SPL is in charge of the troop meetings from beginning to end. He is to see to it that the troop runs smoothly. To me that also means that he should be kept in the loop of all matters that would effect the troop. This definitely will effect the troop in one way or another. It already has and he has not even gone to a meeting held by the other troop.

[ReneScout]

I don't see anything really wrong about this.

 

Don't get me wrong-- I agree that he should have talked to the SPL about it first. But that is related to the headstrong attitude he has and seems to be more of a personality problem that is up to the leaders/parents to try and remedy.

 

Now, since it was the SM who approved this "recon mission" or "espionage extraordinaire" then maybe it should be kept as an adult thing at first. Invite him to make a little talk at your next committee meeting and see what he has to say, then pass it to the SPL/PLC. The boys in the troop will probably not miss the "intel" that the young "secret agent" has raked in (or not, whichever case it may be).

 

 

 

Personally, I've advocated the use of troop visiting and watch-and-learn techniques in my own troop, and while it may not have amounted to much, it still helped our green bar patrol a lot.

[Mafaking]

 

The SPL needs to exert authority over this little emperor or put him on an island.

 

I think the spy scout was scribe. Have the SPL immediately select a new scribe. Then put this spy scout under the POR as special project's of the SM. Get him out the PLC.

 

If this scout goes and stays with the other troop all the batter. However, armed with his new found information he will come back and exert even more of his will over the troop. He will make it up if he needs to. "Troop 1 does it this way".

 

2nd though. During his month long spy campaign on the troop get your SPL to meet the other SPL at McDonalds to discuss the burdens of being SPL. He talks to the troops your SPL talks with the officers.

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

That's a really great idea, to get the two SPLs together. This may also ensure that anything questionable the scribe does or says, will get back to his home troop. Might help keep the scribe from embellishing anything.

 

Should the scribe have talked with the SPL? Should the SM have guided him to do so? Yes. Is it the end of the world? Not necessarily; but the SPL and SM should probably talk over what the goals are, in having the scribe make his visits. Better to coordinate this in advance, rather than have a blow-up when the boy returns. And yes, the SPL needs to take a firm hand in terms of deciding how the troop will use its time at meetings. But on the other hand, he also might benefit from taking some time to talk with his "officers" (PORS) about their views. Maybe the scribe is wrong in his actions because he is speaking for the SPL without the authority to do so - but maybe too, the scribe has some good ideas. Good leaders also listen to the ideas of their subordinates. (And maybe the SM should have a little talk with the scribe about how good subordinates sometimes have to go along with what their leaders decide, like it or not, too.)

 

 

[shortridge]

"The SM thought that it was a good idea to visit them and see if all of this bragging was fact."

 

Sounds like the SM views this not as a learn-from-others venture, but as a troop competition. Not a healthy way to go about it.

[Crossramwedge]

Now, since it was the SM who approved this "recon mission" or "espionage extraordinaire" then maybe it should be kept as an adult thing at first. Invite him to make a little talk at your next committee meeting and see what he has to say, then pass it to the SPL/PLC."

 

With all do respect, this is the main problem here. The SPL got left out of the loop from the get go. To do what you suggested is just another example of how this problem got started. Yes let the young man make a report to the leadership of the Troop, who I understand (on the Program side) is made up of the SM, SPL and PLC. They and only they should decide if any of this info be disseminated or used at all by the troop.

I stated in my last post that this is not the first time this scout has skirted protocol and gone directly to the SM about a change or ideas that he came up with. The point is is that he needs to go to the SPL first. We as a troop have striven to let the SPL be the Main leader of the troop. These types of situations and how they are handled need to be under the direct control of the SPL and PLC with guidance of the SM.

 

After all this is a matter that could effect the whole troop, whether good or bad. The SPL along with the PLC, IMHO, need to be the fulcrum point of all the decisions that effect the Program side of the Troop. If they makes a bad decision so be it. Only if the decision is so bad that it would diversely effect the troop as a whole should the decision be rescinded by the SM. Yet a bad decision should rarely happen. Why? Because the lines of communication between the SM and SPL should be open enough so that bad decisions should not take place. Of course over the passing of time and because of things that happen a good decision when it was made could turn into a bad one because circumstances and variuos schedules could change that effect the prior decision.

 

The SPL considers this younger scout a good scout and a friend. Yes, he has had more than one conversation with this Scout informing him that he needs to come to the SPL with these ideas first. Then he with the SPL approach the SM. That is why he is frustrated about how this recent situation came down.

 

He does truly believe that the scout has no ulterior motives in doing this. After all the SPL is the one who appointed this young man to be the Patrol leader for the New Scouts because of his leadership capabilities. The young man has just made 2ND class. The SPL is also a little upset that he is leaving this patrol and thinks that he would benifit the troop by not taking a month off and instead stay in place as the Patrol leader and not abandon his "kids" at this moment in time.

 

Basically this SPL wants to be kept in the loop, be involved in the decision makeing and wants the 2ND class scout to honor his committment as the new scouts Patrol leader. He wants him to serve his term and then he would be free to go and visit the other troop and come back and make a report. Is that to much to be asked?

[ScoutNut]

From all that you have posted it sounds to me like the SM is one of the main problems here.

 

One of the main jobs of the SM is to train the boys in leadership. Does not sound like he is not doing such a great job with the Scribe/PL. He has let this Scout use him to skirt the SPL (on several occasions), and he has let him overstep the bounds of his jobs without consequence. He has also let this Scout be given 2 jobs when it does not appear he is doing either one very well. If he was such an officious Scribe, doing things he had no business doing, why was he left in that position? Why was he given the position of Patrol Leader?

 

You said that it was this Scouts idea to "spy" on this Troop. Are you sure of that? It sounds to me like the SM could have very well initiated this Scouts idea. He very definitely encouraged him, and, once again, he did not tell him to go to the SPL, or even tell the SPL about it after the fact.

 

Also, it does not sound like the SM, or anyone else in the Troop, has discussed with this Scout his expected behaviors while at the other Troop. You are just assuming that he will behave badly while at this other Troop, behave badly when he returns, and yet are doing nothing to head this all off.

 

The only reason that I can see for this Scout to take a month off from your Troop is if he and the SM are planning that he pretend that he is joining this Troop. That is not good.

 

Your CC and COR should have a bit of a sit down with the SM, this Scout, and possibly the SPL. Explain that it is NOT a "spy" mission. That the Troop and/or this Scout are perfectly able to visit other units, but it should be done respectfully, truthfully, and completely aboveboard.

 

Personally, I like the idea of the SM contacting the SM of the other Troop, and the SPL contacting the SPL of the other Troop to let them know that this Scout (why can't the SPL go with him?) will be visiting for a few meetings. There is no reason for enmity, and no reason to miss meetings in their own Troop.

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

Crossramwedge, are yeh by chance da parent of the SPL?

 

There are a few troops out there that run things so da SPL is the leader and in charge of everything and all that. IMO they're usually not very successful. Good way to burn an SPL out and not let anyone else have a chance to learn and lead.

 

So I think in some ways yeh are misunderstanding da role of an SPL. It's more of a coordination role than a be-king-and-run-things role, eh? In most active troops that use patrol method well, da patrol leaders are the real locus of practical authority, and the other PORs like Scribe are coordinated by the ASPL, not da SPL, and have considerable autonomy to boot. It's a team not a kingdom, eh? An SPL who expects to personally clear all decisions of his subordinates needs to have a SM do a real job of re-training and coachin'.

 

That havin' been said, IMO a PL / Troop Guide for a New Scout Patrol has taken on one of the most important jobs in da troop, eh? If the young man is goin' to leave his post at a critical time like this (first campouts after summer camp), then I reckon it's his duty at least to make sure it's covered in his absence, or to resign the post and let the SPL assign a replacement TG. The lad can then continue his "Scoutmaster approved leadership project" without lettin' anyone else down.

 

All this is just backroom jawin', though. Da SPL needs to ask for a SM Conference and share his feelings with his SM, so they can work 'em out together.

 

Beavah